blud: But they are not considered uniform or accurate as they are not considered to be writtien by the people you think wrote them, they were writtien over time by groups not individuals, and copied and recopied. In addition we don't have any complete versions of the earliest ones, we have pieces.
me: I'm calling "Bull Spit" on this. Ummm...cite me your source, who the group or individual is and what there background is.
I studied "redaction theory" in college in my New Testament class and I would affirm that historians no longer hold to a redaction perspective of the NT. All you have to do is read the earliest disciples of the disciples to see that they quoted from these very gospels or named them by name!
And also cite who said they were not "accurate" (individual or group) there background, oh, and their ax they bring to grind (Jesus Seminar, etc.)
you: Who cares what paul and John or even Ringo thinks about them, i am discussing them as historical documents and the gnostics documents are every bit as historical as the synpotic gospels, they are mostly written down in the 1st century AD and were around long before that in verbal form. and as i have said before many times, gnostic is a word used by people with an agenda to discredit a whole range of religious groups so trying to say Gnostic is this is pointless. Its everything from the "god is evil " guy to the Gospel of thomas.
me: who cares what Paul said? Well: 1) Peter...who called Paul's writings "SCRIPTURE" which meant he viewed them as authoritative and divine as the Old Testament he revered. 2) Paul cared. He was brutally stoned and eventually martyred, based on his claim and testimony that he saw the risen Lord and He told Paul to proclaim the gospel to the gentiles. 3) Luke cared. Luke wrote about the historical birth of the NT church. In it he states the testimony of Aninas (an early Christian Jew who was initially opposed to ministering to Paul). 5) the earliest Christian communities who revered Paul as an apostle 6) early Christian leaders who cite Paul's letters as SCRIPTURE.
So, tell me, what gnostic gospels have this same endorsement?
you: And if you don't like following the work of pseudo authors you might just wanna check out a biblical archeology and history class sometimes becasues guess what, severl of you synoptic gospels are actually not conisderd to be writtien by who you guys claim and they have some pretty damned good proof for it.
me: I have and no they didn't. what courses did you take and where? I had my courses at William Jewell college taught by very liberal religious professors including those who taught redaction theory.
Here's a link to 2 of my college professors:
you: Course you only listen to facts when it supports your position but i kinda like facts to speak for themselves. Also do you really feel if a gospel is first writtne down 10 or 20 years later its that much less relevant?
me: I would suggest that my background is actually much more "open" then yours. Again, if you look at the link above, I studied, argued and debated extremely liberal theologians who supported your view and passed their tests, which required spouting their theories. Have you studied under conservative theologians, passed their courses, etc. having to have studied the more traditional view of the gospels...or are you against just spouting off the hip?
you: If you ever took the time to look at the books not included in the bible, the gnosticd gospels and other heretical issues you would see exactly why they were banned and repudiated and purged. Mostly they deny the authority of the church, you know sorta like you protestants did.
me: Again, I have. My own modalist views are considered heretical. I think you need to pay a little closer attention to the debates here.
you If the protesteant reformation had happened in 300 ad or 500 ad it would have been a heretical target and so would all of you evangelicals.
me: I'm not sure what this means, except you show an astounding ability to generalize, accuse others of having your own scholastic limitations, and don't really know what you are talking about.