EddieBravo - If I'm not mistaken, isn't BJJ the same thing as Catch except with guard and guard passing?
In official Catch matches, did catch have guard passing or not?
Did catch have guard playing at all?
If not, why?
And if not, when exactly did Catch ad guard work and guard passing to the system?
A pin is a win in most catch rules (bare in mind rules for matches changed vastly and there is not a single standard ruleset that defines "catch"). I'm not sure you can say an "official catch match".
So to have your back on the ground is a bad thing.
However, hookers would get in the 'guard' position at times and if the guy inside the 'guard' couldn't get the pin from there then he would indeed 'pass' the guard to get higher up the opponents body to facilitate the pin (or sub).
Due to the dangers of being on your back (in regards to catch rules) it wasn't a prevalent position (guys who ended on the bottom tended to try to end up face down rather than on their back) but it did happen.
No idea is original.
The position I'm talking about is shown in the video clip at the 7minute mark
Good posts rockwell.
In the link I posted, which has embedding disabled, you see a guard-ish position at 0:35.
My postal connections deep inside the heart of traditional Catch Wrestling have responded with the following:
"Closed guard was known as a bottom scissors or bottom body scissors. It was used differently because of the pin possibility so catch guys wouldn't stay flat on their back. They'd line up their knees with the opponent's floating ribs and squeeze sometimes getting a tap but more to make them move.
In straight wrestling they sometimes used it and bridged on their neck to keep their shoulders off the mat (if the opponent was standing) or they'd raise themselves up on their elbows / forearms. Submission wrestling they had some similar moves to BJJ, like the Double Wrist Lock (Kimura), Armbar, Head Scissors (triangle) and Coil Lock (Omoplata).
They also used (and wrestlers still use) something called elevators which is similar to butterfly guard and it was used to sweep or get back up in a scramble and look for a takedown.
As far as I know Half Guard wasn't used and given the choice they preferred to escape from side control and go to defensive position (turtle) and look for a takedown. They wouldn't re-guard from side control like BJJ does.
That's from a classical catch wrestling point of view but today while it might be explored more it's something a catch wrestler ends up in rather than willingly engages, and the wrestler looks to Stand, Sweep and Submit in that order of priority."
EddieBravo - If I'm not mistaken, isn't BJJ the same thing as Catch except with guard and guard passing?
In official Catch matches, did catch have guard passing or not?
Did catch have guard playing at all?
If not, why?
And if not, when exactly did Catch ad guard work and guard passing to the system?
A pin is a win in most catch rules (bare in mind rules for matches changed vastly and there is not a single standard ruleset that defines "catch"). I'm not sure you can say an "official catch match".
So to have your back on the ground is a bad thing.
However, hookers would get in the 'guard' position at times and if the guy inside the 'guard' couldn't get the pin from there then he would indeed 'pass' the guard to get higher up the opponents body to facilitate the pin (or sub).
Due to the dangers of being on your back (in regards to catch rules) it wasn't a prevalent position (guys who ended on the bottom tended to try to end up face down rather than on their back) but it did happen.
No idea is original.
The position I'm talking about is shown in the video clip at the 7minute mark
Good posts rockwell.
In the link I posted, which has embedding disabled, you see a guard-ish position at 0:35.
Yup exactly the one. And what does he do inside the lads 'guard'? He breaks free of it and passes to the outside. That clip is 1903 correct? I doubt many Brits would have been exposed to BJJ back then.
Uncle Justice - My postal connections deep inside the heart of traditional Catch Wrestling have responded with the following:
"Closed guard was known as a bottom scissors or bottom body scissors. It was used differently because of the pin possibility so catch guys wouldn't stay flat on their back. They'd line up their knees with the opponent's floating ribs and squeeze sometimes getting a tap but more to make them move.
In straight wrestling they sometimes used it and bridged on their neck to keep their shoulders off the mat (if the opponent was standing) or they'd raise themselves up on their elbows / forearms. Submission wrestling they had some similar moves to BJJ, like the Double Wrist Lock (Kimura), Armbar, Head Scissors (triangle) and Coil Lock (Omoplata).
They also used (and wrestlers still use) something called elevators which is similar to butterfly guard and it was used to sweep or get back up in a scramble and look for a takedown.
As far as I know Half Guard wasn't used and given the choice they preferred to escape from side control and go to defensive position (turtle) and look for a takedown. They wouldn't re-guard from side control like BJJ does.
That's from a classical catch wrestling point of view but today while it might be explored more it's something a catch wrestler ends up in rather than willingly engages, and the wrestler looks to Stand, Sweep and Submit in that order of priority."
Catch is no-gi bjj with kneeling and elbow pressure in face and body parts. Catch needs to get a scene together where enough people do it so they can compete and get some champions to fight the bjj guys in ADCC :)
Rules that allow win by pinfall make the guard useless, just as in amateur wrestling. The idea that catch guys should therefore never pass guard makes about as much sense as telling BJJ guys not to learn to punch or kick. In other words, it's the kind of logic that fits right in on this message board.
Truemanc3 - I live right next to Wigan... and guess what I do bjj!!! because there are more of us guys around. You would think around here it would be full of catch guys! but there is only 1 guy that is good at it...... but I have to say he is prety good.
Is that Roy Wood? From what I hear he is very good. Teaches Olympic wresting too IIRC.
Roy Wood is good!
But Darren Morris is a beast and his instructor Jack Mountford is also knows alot about CACC.
That video was sweet, if not easily viewed. lol I was wondering about the guard thing too, cause a lot of the later CACC guys seemed to have all these leg locks to attack woth from the position. So I wondered if they made those up to deal with BJJ or if guys used to attempt them against this "lower body scissors." I know it's been aroun forever. I guess there was some guy in my family (not direct) forever ago that did it? Anyhow, great vid.
