takada4life,
Your attitude cleary demonstrates that you are "not really into semantics", so you didn't even need to say that.
Funny you should claim that you "doubt that any wars were won or lost because one side 'practiced' a certain style..." One of the main reasons (though certainly not the only one) that the Macedonians lost to the Romans was that the Roman method of using the gladius (both by the individual soldier, and as a solid unit), was superior to the Macedonian pike system. The Moros of the southern Phillipines credit their fighting arts as having contributed to the preservation of their independence from Spanish rule. Superior weapons and their superior use were likewise two of the primary factors that allowed the Spanish the carve out a vast empire in the New World. And certainly, the Japanese repeatedly point to their ancestors' martial capabilities when discussing the various battles of the Imjin War.
All martial arts (including the Chinese ones) have their pros and cons, depending upon who uses them, and what they are used for. I was merely pointing out what seems to be a common theme these days, and for whatever reason, you took the debate in a different direction. Believe what you want to believe about martial arts--that's your right--but don't project deliberate ignorance on your part as some sort of obvious truism.
TFS
P.S. Mark Cheng is a practitioner of Shuai Jiao, whose articles appear with some frequency in major MA mags. And yes, Shuai Jiao has proven itself in various types of competition. That was never contested either.
Sorry, Jason, but I have to disagree with you there. Practitioners of various systems from different cultures constantly bring up the exploits of their martial ancestors. The relationship between the old and the new is indeed often "tenuous", but that does not mean that it doesn't have any relevance to the argument, either.
TFS
TFS, I appreciate your insight on various topics, but no need to be snooty. I've merely been expressing my opinion. IF you read what I wrote I don't think that warrants this attitude, especially from a "moderator"
takada4life,
Please accept my most humble apologies (and no, I'm not being sarcastic). Yes, I did indeed read what you wrote--my reply was simply very ill-worded, and I am truly sorry for that. You were not "projecting deliberate ignorance" as I so rashly stated, though I still feel that your stance on the overall topic is rather close-minded (and I do not mean any disrespect by that). I respect you as a fellow MA practitioner, and I also respect your right to have your own opinions.
Cordial Regards,
David Mastro/TFS
What Jason Couch said.
To Everyone Else,
I also offer my apologies to the rest of you folks out there, in relation to my recent, strained comments with takada4life. As a moderator, I'm supposed to prevent things like this from happening, as opposed to actually creating such problems. A poor effort on my part, to be sure.
Sincerely,
David Mastro/TFS
takada4life,
?
(pardon my density...)
TFS
TFS it's cool !
takada4life,
That's good news! Once again, I'm sorry. Now let's get back to some serious debate(s)!
:-)
TFS
wow, I go away for two minutes.... thank you both for getting back on track. Its not the occasional disagreement that is a problem, it is when the disagreeing parties refuse to drop it. Thank you both for acting like adults and apologising.
Now, back to Kenpo's history. For what I have been able to gather James Mitose's familiy had a Ryu, or family style, that was a chuan fa chinese boxing style learned from chinese merchants. It stayed in the Mitose clan for several hundred years and undoubtly was modified/influnced by Japanesse jujitsu and budo. When James Mitose lived in Hawai he taught his family style to William Chow, a chinnese imigrant. Now, what I have been unable to find out is if William chow already knew a Gar, or chinnse familiy style of kung fu. At some point William Chow starts teaching kenpo, but he teaches it as a chinnese martial art. William Chow teaches Ed Parker. Now, after learning Kenpo from William Chow, there is a school of thought that Ed Parker spent some time also learning one or more kung fu styles, taking what he liked and adding those techniques to what would become his "American" Kenpo. Now, how much of this is fact and how much is hear say I dont know, and that was the original idea of the thread, to see if anyone had any insight( no pun intended) into this.
Another question: It seems to me that alot of Kenpo instructors also teach Kali. Anyone else notice this, or have a idea why that is?
Sorry, posted on wrong Okinawan thread. Just moved it to Reverse Punch Origin.
Okinawan KeMpo - James Mitose lineage....right?
Chinese KeNpo - Frank "Kwai-Sun" CHow lineage....right?
Ed Parker KeNpo - Ed came from Chow lineage but briefly studied with Mitose....right?
Hawaiian KeMpo - Usually Kara-ho Ken/mpo came from Chow lineage, but spread through Emperado, Dacascos, & others (ex. Kajukenbo)........right?
This is as much as I remember. Feel free to add/correct as necessary.
Chinese military history has had its ups and
downs. Some dynasties were strong (eg. Ming)
and some were weak (Ching). Internal politics had
more to do with its downfall than its martial arts.
China was a huge empire with many ethnic groups
and is very hard to control (remember, it must take
a pretty strong army to carve such a large empire).
It also doesn't help when martial arts were banned
at various times throughout history.
Mr Marcus,
I did have a point about martial arts and military history, and unfortunately the debate became somewhat marred when I suddenly became an idiot and acted like a pompous ass towards takada4life. I would like to offer a few other comments about martial arts and their connection to the military successes (and failures) of ancient powers, and I PROMISE to keep it cool from now on! :-)
When I get back from work tonite I'll post on this subject here...
TFS
TFS, it's okay really ! We all lose it sometimes. For my part I am probably biased towards things Chinese, but I do not mind being debated.
". Now, what I have been unable to find out is if William chow already knew a Gar, or chinnse familiy style of kung fu. "
Yes, apparently, Chow learned & was taught his family's style of Chuan'fa which is usualy referred to Kara ho Kempo.
p.S. In my above post I typed "Frank Chow". I meant "William Chow". sheesh..it's been a while..
As for why many Kenpo guys teach Kali, it's an Ed Parker thing In fact he was responsible for getting Inosanto to start Kali. So, Kenpo(American) has it's "stick fighting", but its a different form of Kali.
Is Kenpo the Jap. pronounciation of Chuan Fa ("fist way")
Well, regarding CMA and military history. It is true that one cannot look at CMA today and say "that is why they lost a lot of wars". BUT, I feel that what we see of CMA today is VASTLY watered down and even theatrical in many cases.
TFS is correct in saying that centuries ago, the martial arts that cultures practiced were often directly related to their style of warfare. The CMA that was practiced centuries or millenia ago would VERY LIKELY have involved weaponry, armor and battlefield fighting tactics.
Truefightscholar wrote -
" If Chinese martial arts are as superior to their Japanese and Western counterparts, then how do these people explain the military history of China? While a considerable power in ancient times, the Chinese then went through several long periods where their nation became the stomping ground for other powers--the Huns, Mongols, Japanese, Manchus, Europeans, etc."
Chinese history is a recurring cycle of power increase and decrease which results in the different dynasties (like everywhere else in the world). It just so happens that two of the successful groups in these succession wars happen to be foreign origins. One must also keep in mind there were also numerous Chinese of non-Han descent. And when the Europeans came, the Qing dynasty was experiencing the weakest point in their reign. If the Europeans didnt come, most likely they would have been toppled and another dynasty comes to power...an endless cycle.
Also in Chinese culture, martial arts and sports in general is not highly thought of. A military career even less. Emphasis was on education, family and money. I don't agree with this but that's the facts. So it has nothing to do with the efficieny of the martial arts but the culture.
Also many times in Chinese history, because of the power and influence of non-military personnel, unsound military strategies and actions have resulted in disasters, eg. China being conquered by the Mongols.
Hey Guys!
Didn't get to post as much as I wanted to last nite--hopefully that will change this evening. Great commentary by all, though.
TFS