On the street, any given opponent is more likely to be able to handle punches than kicks, but I wanted throw more than one or two at the start of the encounter, before they learn what you're doing. There are also a lot of kicks you can use on the street that you can't in a ring (kick to the knee-cap, groin) and those can be VERY effective.
Khun Kao: That was an excellent post. I fully agree with you. The debate over kicking vs punching is as relative as striking vs grappling.
You might as well ask, which is a better weapon, a grenade or a knife? The knife is more practical in close quarter combat and can be used repeatedly whereas the grenade is more practical at a distance and can hit multiple targets but can only be used once. It depends on what range the combat is taking place in.
Ultimately, it comes down to how well you are able to capitalize on your strenghts (as Khun Kao said). Theoretically, a good enough boxer could win all of his/her thai fights with punches alone (assuming he/she could close the gap and ko the opponent).
Actually, when I was training at Jittis Gym in Bangkok, I was taking privates with Moo, one of the instructors. He was considered over the hill by muay thai standards (late 20's or early 30's) but he was AMAZING. I could never hit him with anything and he playfully hit me whenever he wanted. I couldn't even take a step forward! It wasn't possible (for me) to use grappling either because he was too damned skilled. Had he wanted to, he could've kept the fight entirely in kicking range and beat me there without requiring the use of punches, knees or elbows. Had he gone up against someone like Mark Coleman or Rickson on the other hand...
So that's my take on this.
Lautaro
I think that good kicks (both push and round) can defeat good boxing, in fact I've seen it happen. Western boxers always say that they could crush thai boxers of similar size and I find that hard to believe, if you can keep someone away with push kicks, hit from the outside with round kicks, and then work your inside game using boxing, elbows, and knees why would you lose to someone who has just two weapons. If you let him get in and tried to straight box with them maybe but if you use your tools then no.
Not having been in a "real" fight since High School, I can only guess about kickings self defense capabilities.
My understanding is that kicking is inherently risky, as it places you on one foot. A real street fight often ends up on the ground (I don't want to get into a discussion regarding how often and groundfighting) when one opponent charges and tackles the other. So kicking leaves you wide open for a takedown.
Now, I know the claims of boxers who believe that by punching on the offensive and crowding their opponent that they could nullify a kicker. But then again, I know that a good kicker can nullify a boxer.
Let's point to a practical example: Rick "the Jet" Roufus vs. Kiatsongrit. PERFECT example of how punches can nullify kicks, and kicks can nullify punches. Rick started the fight by nearly KO'ing Kiatsongrit with some very heavy punches. He floored Kiatsongrit twice in the first round! (I've even heard that he broke Kiatsongrit's jaw!)
But the rest of the fight, Kiatsongrit covered up and just kicked the leg, over and over and over and over...
Granted, the above examples are sport application. If that had been a street fight, I honestly think Rick Roufus would have been the victor because there would have been no break between rounds for Kiatsongrit to regroup and take a new approach.
I also know of examples in *real* fights where after a kick (or two) to an opponents leg has ended the fight, often before it really starts. Example, I have a friend who was at a party, he and another guy started to get loud with each other and exchange words. You know, as a couple of drunk guys would do. Well, as the one guy started to square up and get ready to do something, my friend lit him up with one (only ONE!) leg kick. That was it! The guy no longer was interested in playing around and backed down.
Another friend got in a fight and effectively took his opponent out of the fight with about 2 or 3 swift leg kicks. His opponent did not have any clue how to defend or stop the kicks, and the guy ended up limping away.
Master K, my coach, has gotten into a street fight where he kicked his opponent in the head. That was it! Fight over!
Overall, I think its a tough call. Each individual has to determine what works best for them. There are some people who are very comfortable kicking. There are others that would be very comfortable punching, others that would be very comfortable on the ground. As long as you learn to dictate the situation to play up your strengths, and you know how to deal with the other factors, you can make any approach work.
(I'm rambling again)
Khun Kao
Hey guys, check out the thread on the jkd forum under the same name (Is kicking really needed?).
Basically, some people point out that you can be a great fighter without having to use kicks and that kicking can be nullified with good boxing ability and serious forward pressure on the opponent. Of course, kicking is still being considered a valuable tool in one's arsenal (it's an integral part of my fighting style personally). It's an interesting thread and a very good read. Check it out!
Lautaro
Interesting thread in a JKD/MMA/Streetfighting context.
Kicking is (obviously) a necessity in ring Thai / Kickboxing. Any use outside the ring? I think that's been discussed many times on this forum. The consensus seems to be, punch and elbow preferably, low kick as a surprise element (and you're confident you can pull it off without getting rushed), high kicks are a no no (unless you're REALLY good). Obviously, this is in the context of roundkicks etc. Stomping and just putting the boot in are useful on the street, but you don't need training to do that.
Cheers
Andy
Didn't LA Brawler settle the debate on kicking during streetfights with his definitive thread titled "Muay Thai kicks no good for the street"?
You guys shouldn't step on his expertise here.
Goong
I can't help but feel that hands would have a stronger influence in a street fight. My reasoning is that confrontations usually occur with the guy right in your face, not from a distance (accross the ring?); effective kicking should be ranged just inside your jab range right?
I've been in three street fights - the first two were racial (-being of oriental ethnicity) beatings where I couldn't do anything against two older and much bigger kids on both occasions. Those happened when I was about thirteen so I didn't even know how to fight then. My only real streetfight happened about three years ago and one of the most important and influential reasons that handwork had greater importance for me was because my legs felt completely frozen from the adrenalin rush - my knees were trembling! It started when I was grabbed and thrown against a wall; I responded by trying to headbutt the guy, but he saw me coming and leaned back a bit and being a bit taller than me, I could only skim his chin. What followed was a real blur to me - I can only remember throwing flurries of punches at his face and those which connected cut his eyebrow and lip before we were pulled apart. I didn't/couldn't use kicks, but in hindsight, the knee/kick to the nuts must be the prince of all street moves.
I have seen kicks in a couple of streetfights though. Once was outside a nightclub where a huge fight had errupted between two groups. I saw one guy take a run up and kick someone in the back with a rough front kick. The other occasion was inside a nightclub when a group locals glassed someone to the floor and kicked and stomped him. I later discovered that he died from those injuries. Oh, and my mate saw someone kick someone in the head with a frontkick in a club - he wasn't knocked out although his turban was knocked off.
Good point. I think the hands are much more instinctive weapons unless you are a hardcore kickboxer.
"handwork had greater importance for me was because my legs felt completely frozen from the adrenalin rush - my knees were trembling!"
fwiw, Hiromi Amada got to the finals of K-1 Japan twice without throwing a kick.. he also KO'ed a bigger, taller Rene Roze recently in the 1st rd
lol at king fighter.
Well I didn't realise this discussion was going to continue but as I said, it boils down to capitalising on your strengths (wrestling, punching, kicking, etc).
I personally have ended several street fights with a single kick. It got to the point (in my streetfighting days) when that became my specialty. I also got beaten by a boxer who closed the gap so quickly I didn't even have time to put my hands up. I've also been tackled by a big bouncer guy who pinned me up against the wall negating my kicks. Sometimes kicking works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes punching works, sometimes it doesn't, blah blah blah, you get the point.
This is why it's important to be well rounded and capable of fighting in any range. As Bollard said, it's a necessity in kickboxing/muay thai. Outside the ring it isn't NECESSARY but it can still be effective when you're good at it and/or your opponent isn't good at defending it.
Lautaro
another thing.. if the cops come and somebody tells them you were kicking.. you may get in trouble cause they know you're a "martial artist"
Personally, Ive used kicking alot in a street fight. Even high kicking. Usually they are too pissed to see it coming. I usually throw punches to set them up though. But on a few occasions I have been able to put a guy on the back foot with a few solid punches and as he is backing away, he gets kicked.
Ive never been in a position where I have had my leg caught, but then again, I cant say that that will never happen.
Yours,
Beev
Good thread guys.
Goong is correct! LOL
Yuki
Though im sure most of us would rather fight a guy on the street that just punched rather than kicked and punched
True dat.
I've boxed, grappled and done MT (only fought in the last 2 art though) a few times over the last few years, and I have have to say GOOD kicking skills, when combined with footwork and distancing, can really throw a boxer off game.
Bridging is key when you defend against punches with a leg kick, as is zoning to one side or the other. Personally, I find teeping or round kicking the front leg with my own lead leg to be pretty effective in stopping punches. If a boxer can't effectively jab, he won't be able to use an agressive forward attack as effectively--put watch out if he's a good counterpuncher.
Personally, I wouldn't kick as a first choice in a streetfight...it's all about finger jabs/palm strikes, elbows, headbutts, knees...I could see using a kick/sweep to dump a guy after you've disoriented him tho'.
Peace.
Iceberg Slim (formerly known as paulm)
In my street fighting experiences it is more stand up than ground fighting. Yes it may go to the ground but I only got 1 fight to end in a choke. Another was a quick throw to the ground but no control over the psycho Marine dude. I always got into street fights when I was not training and mainly relied on boxing and Judo. When I'm training I guess I would have used more advanced techniques MT and BJJ??? Thats hard to say. It's so fast in the streets and it gets broken up before you can think. I even got 7 stitches when hit with an Ash Tray from a 2nd assailant. In the ring I always like to counter boxers with good leg kicks. You do need good boxing defense no matter what strategy you use.
Kenwingjitsu,
thats why i was laughing.
You're from LA, right?
Trolling is useless.
Anyways. I've seen a mans knee torn with a side kick. I've seen kicks used "for real". & Have done a few myself.
I'm not sure if I would throw a Kick in a streetfight, but if my oppnet put his head down, I'd have no trouble putting my knee into his head like it was a fucking sledgehammer, hopefully breaking his nose and and any other sensitive bone in his face.