Is the US too big NOT to fail?

Every entity can become too big where the whole is disconnected from the parts. With a unified vision, innovation, and all members aligned to that vision, larger entities can extend their useful life. This is rare though and usually a fleeting accomplishment. They say too big to fail, but the truth is once you get too big you are too big to not fail. I think this applies to governments as well.

It seems we are a people deeply fractured in our values. If Trump wins he will be the antithesis of what ~ 65% of the country wants. If Biden wins he will be the antithesis of what 65% of the country wants.

Every election cycle we are hoodwinked into believing "the will of the people spoke with resounding clarity". The truth is approximately 33% of the country voted for the winner, 32% voted for the loser, and 34% said no thank you.

I think we need to consider dividing the country into territories to align people with a government they feel is representative of their values. Top of my head proposal:

Hawaii, Alaska, and Texas become independent territories. Remaining states will be split into at least two nations but I think four is more appropriate. The nations are independent having their own presidents, congress, and courts. 

I'd rather do this agreeably in peace rather than disagreeably in conflict.

The problem with splitting up is it won't be long until the only remaining superpower China, will begin it's unrestrained influencing on Hawaii, California, Oregon and Washington State. 

And you cannot allow a foreign entity to encroach on the main body of our continent. 

It would be disastrous for not only the remaining states. But Canada and Mexico as well. Border disputes would ratchet up rather quickly with Nevada and Utah and Idaho. 

They're landlocked states and would be easily cut off from supply lines. They only are that could remain free from the influence would be the south. Texas and Louisiana, Florida. They have ports. But without a unified military every state would be subjected to the possibility of a quick and decisive invasion. Especially since the east and west coast have effectively spent decades disarming the population. 

You're kind of talking about the Tainter Thesis here. I recommend you check out the full book ( https://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf ) but the basic idea is that complex societies last only as long as their complexity is a net benefit. Once they get too big and unweildy they start to malfunction, and it makes sense to people to sweep away the assembled laws and customs of the old society and start again from a simpler version. 

This can happen violently or peacefully. I'm with you that I'd prefer that it happen peacefully, though I'm not sure that your exact solution is the one I'd go with.

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edit

Guess I forgot how to embed a video. Here's a link, anyway: https://youtu.be/G0R09YzyuCI

Every civilization in the history of mankind has eventually fallen.

2 Likes
Pustak -

You're kind of talking about the Tainter Thesis here. I recommend you check out the full book ( https://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf ) but the basic idea is that complex societies last only as long as their complexity is a net benefit. Once they get too big and unweildy they start to malfunction, and it makes sense to people to sweep away the assembled laws and customs of the old society and start again from a simpler version. 

This can happen violently or peacefully. I'm with you that I'd prefer that it happen peacefully, though I'm not sure that your exact solution is the one I'd go with.

Thanks for the resource, I'll give it a look. I don't know precisely what the division should look like, it would take a considerable study. I was throwing out a "could look like" birds eye view to stoke ideas. 

I do think if we solve it during peace we'll avoid a lot of local and global calamity though. Right now we're maybe a generation or two of current trending direction away from something we can't come back from as a society.

Paramount Donkey -

Every civilization in the history of mankind has eventually fallen.

So why not program your fall into civil manageable pieces.

Anything humans build is capable of epic failure. 

Civilizations that seemed stable and lasted much much longer than any modern one have failed and collapsed.  

the us is fine. the strength of the founders' design, the sheer complexity of our system, and the extreme headroom in our economy will guarantee the united states' endurance for quite a while.

there have always been and will always be those discontent with either the status quo or the direction things are progressing toward -- or both. as well as those simply extrapolating their fears over contemporary unrest. we heard just these sentiments out of pretty big-name public figures in the 1960's reacting to the peace and civil rights movements, in the red scare of the 1950's, and numerous times when the labor movement has reared its head. hell, one riot in the 1990's saw talking heads predicting the dissolution of the union by the y2k.

the us has A LOT of miles left and plenty of time to decide how to deal with its ever-evolving problems before we throw in the towel.

Pustak -

You're kind of talking about the Tainter Thesis here. I recommend you check out the full book ( https://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf ) but the basic idea is that complex societies last only as long as their complexity is a net benefit. Once they get too big and unweildy they start to malfunction, and it makes sense to people to sweep away the assembled laws and customs of the old society and start again from a simpler version. 

This can happen violently or peacefully. I'm with you that I'd prefer that it happen peacefully, though I'm not sure that your exact solution is the one I'd go with.

It's almost like humans are subject to market forces even with culture/governance, despite the efforts of government.

havomaster -

The problem with splitting up is it won't be long until the only remaining superpower China, will begin it's unrestrained influencing on Hawaii, California, Oregon and Washington State. 

And you cannot allow a foreign entity to encroach on the main body of our continent. 

It would be disastrous for not only the remaining states. But Canada and Mexico as well. Border disputes would ratchet up rather quickly with Nevada and Utah and Idaho. 

They're landlocked states and would be easily cut off from supply lines. They only are that could remain free from the influence would be the south. Texas and Louisiana, Florida. They have ports. But without a unified military every state would be subjected to the possibility of a quick and decisive invasion. Especially since the east and west coast have effectively spent decades disarming the population. 

That's why the division would necessitate concessions on both coasts.

Something like NE and SE = liberals, NW and SE = conservatives, Midwest = libertarians to perhaps buffer as a duty free trade zone. Everyone would have coastal access and transportation.

Ghhhina would definitely have trouble after the US dollar was eliminated and all those treasuries they hold are worthless. Marxism will always fail. 

We are too violent of a nation to allow it to happen. I mean, we fought to be here, then fought each other, and then dropped nukes on people. The firearms of the citizens of the country deters anyone trying to go forward with trying to overthrow our way of life.

I want to avoid this at all costs because that is a hell on earth type of scenario. Everyone loses. 

Schlonged Nytrons Cheech - 
havomaster -

The problem with splitting up is it won't be long until the only remaining superpower China, will begin it's unrestrained influencing on Hawaii, California, Oregon and Washington State. 

And you cannot allow a foreign entity to encroach on the main body of our continent. 

It would be disastrous for not only the remaining states. But Canada and Mexico as well. Border disputes would ratchet up rather quickly with Nevada and Utah and Idaho. 

They're landlocked states and would be easily cut off from supply lines. They only are that could remain free from the influence would be the south. Texas and Louisiana, Florida. They have ports. But without a unified military every state would be subjected to the possibility of a quick and decisive invasion. Especially since the east and west coast have effectively spent decades disarming the population. 

That's why the division would necessitate concessions on both coasts.

Something like NE and SE = liberals, NW and SE = conservatives, Midwest = libertarians to perhaps buffer as a duty free trade zone. Everyone would have coastal access and transportation.

Ghhhina would definitely have trouble after the US dollar was eliminated and all those treasuries they hold are worthless. Marxism will always fail. 

it's interesting to obliquely note that marxism will always fail on a thread predicting and proscribing the failure of the greatest exponent of capitalism the world has ever known.

Pustak -

Guess I forgot how to embed a video. Here's a link, anyway: https://youtu.be/G0R09YzyuCI

"Tainter", hehe

Peixes -
Schlonged Nytrons Cheech - 
havomaster -

The problem with splitting up is it won't be long until the only remaining superpower China, will begin it's unrestrained influencing on Hawaii, California, Oregon and Washington State. 

And you cannot allow a foreign entity to encroach on the main body of our continent. 

It would be disastrous for not only the remaining states. But Canada and Mexico as well. Border disputes would ratchet up rather quickly with Nevada and Utah and Idaho. 

They're landlocked states and would be easily cut off from supply lines. They only are that could remain free from the influence would be the south. Texas and Louisiana, Florida. They have ports. But without a unified military every state would be subjected to the possibility of a quick and decisive invasion. Especially since the east and west coast have effectively spent decades disarming the population. 

That's why the division would necessitate concessions on both coasts.

Something like NE and SE = liberals, NW and SE = conservatives, Midwest = libertarians to perhaps buffer as a duty free trade zone. Everyone would have coastal access and transportation.

Ghhhina would definitely have trouble after the US dollar was eliminated and all those treasuries they hold are worthless. Marxism will always fail. 

it's interesting to obliquely note that marxism will always fail on a thread predicting and proscribing the failure of the greatest exponent of capitalism the world has ever known.

On the surface it may seem that way but I'd suggest the most divisive parts of our nation accelerating this potential fall is... wait for it... wait for it.... Marxists. 

They need their own sandbox to fuck up.

Cotton -

We are too violent of a nation to allow it to happen. I mean, we fought to be here, then fought each other, and then dropped nukes on people. The firearms of the citizens of the country deters anyone trying to go forward with trying to overthrow our way of life.

I want to avoid this at all costs because that is a hell on earth type of scenario. Everyone loses. 

I agree though I think it's not the power of the nation that precludes it but the power of the ruling and the fear of the unknown. There's theory and then there's actuality and this could all happen in theory; in actuality it won't happen because people want their power spread far and wide.

Schlonged Nytrons Cheech - 
Peixes -
Schlonged Nytrons Cheech - 
havomaster -

The problem with splitting up is it won't be long until the only remaining superpower China, will begin it's unrestrained influencing on Hawaii, California, Oregon and Washington State. 

And you cannot allow a foreign entity to encroach on the main body of our continent. 

It would be disastrous for not only the remaining states. But Canada and Mexico as well. Border disputes would ratchet up rather quickly with Nevada and Utah and Idaho. 

They're landlocked states and would be easily cut off from supply lines. They only are that could remain free from the influence would be the south. Texas and Louisiana, Florida. They have ports. But without a unified military every state would be subjected to the possibility of a quick and decisive invasion. Especially since the east and west coast have effectively spent decades disarming the population. 

That's why the division would necessitate concessions on both coasts.

Something like NE and SE = liberals, NW and SE = conservatives, Midwest = libertarians to perhaps buffer as a duty free trade zone. Everyone would have coastal access and transportation.

Ghhhina would definitely have trouble after the US dollar was eliminated and all those treasuries they hold are worthless. Marxism will always fail. 

it's interesting to obliquely note that marxism will always fail on a thread predicting and proscribing the failure of the greatest exponent of capitalism the world has ever known.

On the surface it may seem that way but I'd suggest the most divisive parts of our nation accelerating this potential fall is... wait for it... wait for it.... Marxists. 

They need their own sandbox to fuck up.

in this case, i don't doubt there's something to that

human constructs have always had a shelf life, so far. i think i'd rather live through the capitalist failures than the marxist ones, though.

2 Likes
Schlonged Nytrons Cheech -
Paramount Donkey -

Every civilization in the history of mankind has eventually fallen.

So why not program your fall into civil manageable pieces.

Hubris. Every superpower thinks it's invincible right up to its final dying moments.

The March of Folly is an amazing historical work. It tells the stories of several catastrophic failures from history, where the leaders knew that the course of action they were taking is futile/self-destructive and yet kept on going. The US is doing the same thing now as it's collapsing.

GarlicSauce -
Schlonged Nytrons Cheech -
Paramount Donkey -

Every civilization in the history of mankind has eventually fallen.

So why not program your fall into civil manageable pieces.

Hubris. Every superpower thinks it's invincible right up to its final dying moments.

The March of Folly is an amazing historical work. It tells the stories of several catastrophic failures from history, where the leaders knew that the course of action they were taking is futile/self-destructive and yet kept on going. The US is doing the same thing now as it's collapsing.

Agreed. For we shmucks on an internet forum, this is an easy conversation. For the national leaders on the national stage that is a conversation that requires too much "courage".

You'd be labeled by the left as:

  • A racist that wants slavery back
  • A chauvenist that wants to end womens suffrage
  • Someone that wants to put an end to "women's reproductive rights"
  • A xenophobe

?You'd be labeled by the right as:

  • Weak on defense
  • Weak on police
  • A marxist puppet
  • A radical anarchist

That really ensures we have discourse in the best interest of our society.