Islam is the problem

But it should also be the solution to dealing with the small percentage of radicals within this religion/ideology. America and the other great western powers shouldn't have to be the world police. I dont believe we can deal with this problem without the help of good muslims. We need you all to speak up, speak out and stand up to these that kill in the name of your prophet and religion. 

Religion has always been the problem 

religion is a problem.

laws allowing for freedom of religion are fine.
any laws limiting freedoms because of someone else's religion are bullshit.

morality is just a social construct, so it might make laws more difficult to make, but using personal rights as the guideline for protections would still pretty much land us in the same place.


Lots of "moderates" secretly side with these pieces of shit so it'll never change, it'll only get much worse. It's only a matter of time until they have an overwhelming majority of the population on all continents, what do you think it'll be like then? It'll take a few hundred years but we'll be back to the stone ages soon enough. 

Tiresias -
Stea1th -

Religion has always been the problem 

When peoples move out of primitive, tribal conditions, it is always when they develop a religion and a culture-- religion, culture, and social order always come together at once, as part of the same historical phenomenon. So your claim is on one level completely meaningless, and on another completely false. Just saying.

The education you've been given isn't really your fault.


Meanwhile, it's well and good to say Islam should reform itself. Does saying it make a difference? Can it? At this moment in history, I don't know. The will may be lacking.

What we would consider "reform of Islam" would entail assimilation of liberal western ideas to some extent. Is this a time in history when other cultures are moving towards the West, or away from it? I think the answer is obvious, and it means liberal reform of Islam isn't likely to arise spontaneously anytime soon.

how about a simple addendum and nothing else

 

don't kill anyone, ever

 

 

nothing else...they can fanatasize about their virgins and other aspects of sharia, just take the killing aspect out of it

 

 

not attacking you Tiresias, but it is a shame that even asking for a simple addendum such as "dont kill people" would be considered "liberal" to Islam

Tiresias - 
Stea1th -

Religion has always been the problem 

When peoples move out of primitive, tribal conditions, it is always when they develop a religion and a culture-- religion, culture, and social order always come together at once, as part of the same historical phenomenon. So your claim is on one level completely meaningless, and on another completely false. Just saying.

The education you've been given isn't really your fault.


Meanwhile, it's well and good to say Islam should reform itself. Does saying it make a difference? Can it? At this moment in history, I don't know. The will may be lacking.

What we would consider "reform of Islam" would entail assimilation of liberal western ideas to some extent. Is this a time in history when other cultures are moving towards the West, or away from it? I think the answer is obvious, and it means liberal reform of Islam isn't likely to arise spontaneously anytime soon.

society doesn't need religion and god worship to have morality.

supernatural punishment and/or karma maybe, but not "there is a supreme being.

and many refute your hypothesis that religion comes before morality:

" people’s moral intuitions do not vary much across different religions all around the world. From an evolutionary perspective, that means that human morality is very old -- old enough to pre-date any religion that exists today. Furthermore, basic morality is highly resistant to religious influence -- most people easily reject religious rules that violate their basic moral intuitions. Rather, religions all tend to confirm and support human morality, because that essential morality sustains our schemes of social cooperation."

"Religion did not evolve independently from, or earlier than, our moral capacities. Morality is independent from religion, while religion is dependent on human morality. And that's a good thing."

It's not Islam. It's religion. No one can agree on who's imaginary man in the sky is the real one, despite the fact that they're all really telling the same story. 

fuzzislipperz -

It's not Islam. It's religion. No one can agree on who's imaginary man in the sky is the real one, despite the fact that they're all really telling the same story. 

"it's not Islam"

Bull fucking shit

Start dropping daisy cutters closer and closer to Mecca and medina and tell the sand zealots we'll quit when they have cleaned up their own shit

Adrianjr93 -

But it should also be the solution to dealing with the small percentage of radicals within this religion/ideology. America and the other great western powers shouldn't have to be the world police. I dont believe we can deal with this problem without the help of good muslims. We need you all to speak up, speak out and stand up to these that kill in the name of your prophet and religion. 

It's not a small percentage that is radical so hoping that the larger majority of "good Muslims" will stop the bad is pointless

https://youtu.be/g7TAAw3oQvg

Stronghold - Start dropping daisy cutters closer and closer to Mecca and medina and tell the sand zealots we'll quit when they have cleaned up their own shit


This.

All religion is the problem.

Dont prey on me!

Tiresias - In all seriousness, it's a terrible time to be jumping on the activist atheist bandwagon. That train is out of gas!

Get in with one of the emerging pagan or cult-type religions as they arise, or join the global religious unification movement. IMO YMMV

It's entirely possible that in the next several decades, a war between the Muslim world and the West (or other great power) could effectively cripple Islam. The war itself would only be the culmination of an inner process of cultural collapse.

The Abrahamic religions are at the end of their cycle.

I suggest you jump on the Zensunni bandwagon early on. It is going places.

Islam, like any religion, is always changing more than its own practitioners will admit. The history of Islam has always been a tug of war between trend towards Orthodox Legalism, Mysticism, Rationalism, and Puritanism. Right now, the orthodox are still the large majority, but the radical puritans are punching well above their weight. This is in no small part thanks to Saudi money, but it is also the one that has the most "heroic" type narrative in opposition to the West. And, like Tireasias said, there are global trends around the world that are opposed to the neoliberal capitalist world order. Radical Islamic Puritanism is just the most flamboyant.

But they aren't close to being the entirey of Islamism. The philisophical basis for Orthodox Islamism, like what you see in the Muslim Brotherhood, is actually pretty pro-democracy. One of the parts of that tradition says that the early Islamic society was a constitutional democracy that readily embraced and even pushed forward their contemporaneous version of modernity. Islamic society did not keep dong that, and the West did, so the West got to where it is by, basically, being better Muslims. Of course that sounds nice but didn't translate well into practice, but the worst of what Orthodox Islamists do honestly doesn't look that different from what more secular rulers do when they run things in the Middle East.

And I don't know what you are expecting of a Muslim Reformation. The reformation of western Christianity was ridiculously brutal. The time in between the Diet of Worms in 1521 and the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 was a whole lot of rape and murder until everyone finally agreed to the principal that a dictator has the right to enforce his own religious laws.

Muslim terrorists kill Muslims 95% of the time. It's a problem with extremists.

anthonyMI - 
Tiresias - In all seriousness, it's a terrible time to be jumping on the activist atheist bandwagon. That train is out of gas!

Get in with one of the emerging pagan or cult-type religions as they arise, or join the global religious unification movement. IMO YMMV

It's entirely possible that in the next several decades, a war between the Muslim world and the West (or other great power) could effectively cripple Islam. The war itself would only be the culmination of an inner process of cultural collapse.

The Abrahamic religions are at the end of their cycle.

I suggest you jump on the Zensunni bandwagon early on. It is going places.


The Orange Catholic Bible is a lie.

Stea1th -

Religion has always been the problem 

Idiotic answer. When was the last time you heard of a buddhist or an anglican killing in the name of their religion? You may not like religion but other religions are not the problem. ISLAM is the problem.

attjack - Muslim terrorists kill Muslims 95% of the time. It"s a problem with extremists.

The problem is that around 20% of the worldwide Muslim population hold beliefs that Westerners would consider extreme.  Just look up the Pew research poll and a bunch of other studies that are out there.  And just because 95% of the time they kill other muslims doesn't mean it's not a problem.

or you're just being sarcastic haha

Tiresias -
sacredhate -
Tiresias - 
Stea1th -

Religion has always been the problem 

When peoples move out of primitive, tribal conditions, it is always when they develop a religion and a culture-- religion, culture, and social order always come together at once, as part of the same historical phenomenon. So your claim is on one level completely meaningless, and on another completely false. Just saying.

The education you've been given isn't really your fault.


Meanwhile, it's well and good to say Islam should reform itself. Does saying it make a difference? Can it? At this moment in history, I don't know. The will may be lacking.

What we would consider "reform of Islam" would entail assimilation of liberal western ideas to some extent. Is this a time in history when other cultures are moving towards the West, or away from it? I think the answer is obvious, and it means liberal reform of Islam isn't likely to arise spontaneously anytime soon.

society doesn't need religion and god worship to have morality.

supernatural punishment and/or karma maybe, but not "there is a supreme being.

and many refute your hypothesis that religion comes before morality:

" people’s moral intuitions do not vary much across different religions all around the world. From an evolutionary perspective, that means that human morality is very old -- old enough to pre-date any religion that exists today. Furthermore, basic morality is highly resistant to religious influence -- most people easily reject religious rules that violate their basic moral intuitions. Rather, religions all tend to confirm and support human morality, because that essential morality sustains our schemes of social cooperation."

"Religion did not evolve independently from, or earlier than, our moral capacities. Morality is independent from religion, while religion is dependent on human morality. And that's a good thing."

You're trying to have some other argument dude.

You can talk all you went about "what society needs"-- it's unlikely to have any relationship to fact.

People forget how long it takes to build the world. Every civilization takes centuries to secure itself, build itself, and achieve greatness. And it's a fact of history that every single one has done so with religion. So you live in a world foundationed on Christianity, even though what you see and touch all comes from a stage that had already left it behind... But the chain from there to here is still unbroken.

You are seeing right now what happens to a civilization at the end of the process of throwing off every last piece of the old culture, including religion. There's nothing left. This means nothing to you now, but it will mean more and more to the next several generations. No one will be adopting western values at all. They'll be throwing them out too.

Old, worn out civilizations yield to younger peoples. Those coming movements won't know or care about anyone's western liberal ideas about atheism. All those thoughts will be gone. They will start fresh, with fresh religion.

excellent post