I must say im impressed AttentionDeficitDizzle, i dont post often, but i thought id say thanks for taking the time to offer your insight.
I dont recall anyone on here being able to dissect boxing intricacies as competently or express them in such easy to understand language.
You must have been around the boxing game for a considerable amount of time.
Reemz - I must say im impressed AttentionDeficitDizzle, i dont post often, but i thought id say thanks for taking the time to offer your insight.
I dont recall anyone on here being able to dissect boxing intricacies as competently or express them in such easy to understand language.
You must have been around the boxing game for a considerable amount of time.
Thanks man. I have watched boxing since I was a kid, and I've seen every UFC event since the first one, so I've always analyzed the sport early on just looking at the striking and where that has factored in over the evolution of the sport.
My brother grew up doing the same thing and for years we ordered DVD's of old fights on eBay and we've made a habit of watching a lot of obscure VHS fights as well. We literally watched almost every Friday Night Fights event since the 90's and went over the technical aspects of upcoming fighters.
My brother started training and became an amateur because we were always in the gym training anyway for fun and he still trains like 4 days a week.
But if you spend years listening to guys like Teddy Atlas and Emmanuel Steward and old fighters dissect fights, you sort of learn how they see things. We also bounced around at some gyms around the country and talked to fighters and trainers and at this point we can both watch someone for a little while and immediately know within a few minutes where they're at and how they've been trained and what would take them out.
My brother and I called that Pacman loss recently, but we've always said the same thing about his style...and there are some posts on the thread about boxing that Bonds created that has been floating around for a while on the UG that confirms my prediction. In that I discussed Floyd's overhand right and how easy it would be to take Pacman out early with that shot, but also what Pacman needs to do to beat Floyd. Unfortunately of course Marquez loaded up that right and timed it and got him but we knew it was a matter of time. Pacman's people should NEVER have taken that last Marquez fight, that was such a bad bad decision.
I know what JDS needs to do to get that title back, and I know what Reem needs to do to beat Cain, but I can tell Cain has got someone over there with a good eye who's got him preparing properly on his feet. You wont see too many guys who can maintain that kind of output and mix in all those techniques over 5 rounds, he's gonna be tough to beat, but he is definitely beatable.
The best trainers in boxing can always see the future, even when fighters cant see it themselves. JDS's trainers should've seen how vulnerable he was and kept pushing him to shore up those holes, regardless of their faith in his hands or his previous fights. JDS was almost a victim of his fortune because of his wins and that first fight against Cain, which sort of blinded everyone around him and caused them to overlook any potential mistakes in the 2nd fight. That always happens when fighters reach a certain level.
But, another reality is the incompetence of their prior training or knowledge becomes more obvious the higher they rise and the more challenges they face. Some guys are so good that their level of incompetence is so low they never really endure any beatings or threats. Mayweather is a good example, the dude is just beyond great. Everyone else though usually gets to a critical level and then their flaws or mistakes catch up to them and they have peaked. The best guys come back better every time they fight, win or lose. Tyson was like that until he stopped training and lost focus and developed a higher level of incompetence the more distracting his personal life became until he got his ass whooped by Buster, who had come ready as a heart attack. Buster had just lost his dad and had put all of that suffering and energy into training and focusing on Tyson's weaknesses, and despite Tyson's obvious talent and potential and skill, he got lost in the hype and wasn't improving. He had peaked and then declined and ran into the wrong guy who had a near equal amount of sweet science knowledge and training, but who was better prepared and had addressed Tyson's weaknesses before even he could. I know Teddy and Cus saw it coming, but Tyson had been on a train steered by fame and King and they couldn't compete with that kind of pressure.
I really don't see the fame and recognition and money being a factor with Cain, the dude is always improving no matter what. I don't think he's gonna lose for a while unless Jones steps up and puts on some weight, or Anderson does, but even then I don't see them winning. He'd eventually be too much for them. He's a lot bigger, stronger, and faster than he looks on TV too, it is kind of deceiving.
Just to make another prediction, no way in hell GSP takes any sort of fight against Anderson. If he does that it'll be suicide.
GARRYD - I have read some BS on this forum before but reading Cain did everything to JDS that a pro boxer would do is just a about the most stupid thing i have read,makes it sound like Cain stood toe to toe with him lol
Cain utilised his wrestling to neutralise any boxing from JDS ,as soon as Cain landed a couple of punches he was then going for a take down.
It was the perfect game plan to beat JDSs style of long range boxing ,Cain did not let him have that space where JDS gets his punches off and where JDS feels most comfortable .
OK, what did Cain not do?
You make it sound like he was just rushing in like Lesnar and landing a "couple of punches".
It was nowhere near that simple. He made so many adjustments and did so many small things with his movement that all paid off. I don't think you really understand what he was doing and your brain just saw that he got inside and landed punches, which is A to B.
That's called ignorance because you're ignoring the details. You make it sound like his camp just told him, "go forward homes, grab, attack homie, throw a couple punches bro". You trying to refer to my post as stupid when you can't even add any details or discuss how Cain got inside is stupid.
Pot stirring idiots like yourself are why people make dumb decisions for other people when they have power. It is because you don't know how to critically examine something because a dumb brain prefers A + B = C. You keep doing basic math and leave the rest of the thinking up to people who know how to do it.
Oh, and your last paragraph was just you repeating what I said in my prediction post about how Cain would win, after I explained in more detail in that how Cain would need to get inside. You just ripped my shit off too you simpleton.
AttentionDeficitDizzle - <blockquote>Wasa-B - Agree with some stuff. Disagree with others. <br /><br />Also by the way you mention "laying on people," is it safe to presume you are overlooking the fact that its grappling and not striking that is the basis of MMA? <br /><br />The object in MMA is to win by your MMA strengths, not to show how technically sound your boxing is. <br /><br />Paul Daley mixed in with those other guys? <br /><br />And whats with shitting on a guy like Feitosa cause he's not a boxer?<br /><br />"I agree that it is more than boxing, but JDS prepared for the other stuff like the clinching and take downs. He was completely confused though with Cain's strikes, he was way off balance and stopped breathing."<br /><br />- Again, it wasnt just Cain's strikes and JDS's poor boxing fundamentals. The relentless td ability and threat of the td is huge factor to Cain's standup like it is to GSP and vice versa. <br /><br />Again, i think you do have some good observations. Perhaps the lack of breathing is why JDS gassed so fast but this is the first time in 10 UFC fights and against consistent top opposition that's happened. <br /><br />I do agree that JDS can make some adjustments to his game like Chuck did to Randy to come back to win again. But Cain is still improving too. <br /><br />"The one thing he wasn't prepared for was that Cain would expose his striking flaws and defensive boxing flaws, and that some of his other boxing flaws would have a cumulative effect on his body really early in the fight. He was in trouble and dead tired way too soon."<br /><br />"I think JDS's camp assumed Cain would try to use take downs and would be avoiding striking and boxing at all costs because of the previous KO, so they were overconfident in JDS's boxing"<br /><br />- Those 2 scenarios are very possible, agreed.</blockquote><br />
I'll see what I can dig up this week from Cain's camp. I don't know anyone over there but I'd be curious to talk with whoever analyzed JDS's boxing.
Feitosa shouldn't have let JDS do any training that reinforced his bad habits and left his head exposed. JDS looked like he was doing an OK job early of moving his feet and trying to counter Cain coming in but the shots were inaccurate, relatively slow and off balance, and he never threw more than one counter backing up at a time. He stumbled and didn't float like fluid. Cain just kept getting around him and inside and just based on those obvious flaws you can safely assume there were major inadequacies in Junior's training and how his trainer approached it. That video showed so many holes in the short time I viewed it that coincided with things I had noticed in his other fights with his footwork and how his opponents responded to his power. He never got into any danger where his poor head movement and loose style ended up costing him damage. I know he's had some impressive wins but I would argue he's not fought anyone recently with sound boxing technique and coaching. His opponents and their styles are part of the reason he was so confident in his technique and why his habits are so deeply ingrained in his style. Lots of people think because they're doing well that they don't need to fix anything, then they run into someone doing something they haven't seen before. That's something you can adapt to if you're seasoned and sound, but otherwise you can get hurt. His coaches may have also had too much confidence in his stand-up to really push him to change anything.
I would also argue that as far as MMA goes, it is not boxing, but the fighters always end up having to at some point in their careers exchange on their feet. I'd rather see fighters learn to box well early than see fights turn into really ugly slug fests where guys are beating hell from each other because they are just throwing bombs. Those are exciting for fans who want blood, but they can be frustrating when the two guys are just flingin and bleedin. I also think that fighters shouldn't define themselves around a central style, that they should continually evolve and develop diversity in their skills and become as adept as possible at everything. You used GSP as an example. There are times he really frustrates me when he leg humps. I get the concept of winning on points and avoiding punishment and applying pressure, but I think the sport is not about just winning but it is how you win.
I'll follow up on this thread later this week. Thanks for going back and forth with me wasabi!
Javier Mendez and AKA is great and experienced camp but we havnt seen that many turn around so dramatically in a rematch for a while. Edgar did come back to finish Gray but drew in the first figt. Chuck completely turned it around against Randy. Funny enugh, i think Randy' performance against Chuck in the first fight can be compared stylistically to this fight where the grappler pushed the pace against the striker and kept him guessing with a mix of striking with the constant threat of tds and steady pressure.
I believe Mendez's background though is kickboxing and not boxing.
Anyhow, though i cant completely agree with everything you got out there, you, like Jack Slack, the other knowledable and techncal writer on striking in MMA, can give the board some great insight in striking and boxing. There is also a Duke Roufus thread here about striking in the MMA context with all the various styles of striking discussed and also how the td etc effect the stances and distances, also a great read.
On GSP "leg humping" though, you should check out the Gracie Breakdowns on youtube by Ralek and Ryron (?), they give the same techncal insight as you do in striking but from the BJJ perspective and they have one on GSP/Condit and all the thigs most are missing on the ground, the finer little points. You have to understand when GSP is "leg humping" its all in the effort to pass and control, he, like say Okami vs Belcher just isnt very good lately at securing the subs opportunities and/or reigning down with better GNP on the ground. But there's a world to learn about position and stuff on the ground.
Good stuff anyhow man, glad to debate, discuss with some non tapout tards on here!
Just rewatched again and imo its pretty simple actually:
It is similar to Randy/Chuck I were Cain just smothers JDS with both striking and tds (clinches and shoots). It was similar to Okami/Belcher too, basically closing the gap 101: punch/punch/clinch and/or shoot.
There may be some technical short comings in JDS defense but it was never a boxing match imo it was, again imho, closing the gap 101. Many of Cain's shoots were actually off JDS' counter attempts: Cain punches, JDS counters, Cain shoots and Cain never let up.
GARRYD -AttentionDeficitDizzle -GARRYD - I have read some BS on this forum before but reading Cain did everything to JDS that a pro boxer would do is just a about the most stupid thing i have read,makes it sound like Cain stood toe to toe with him lol
Cain utilised his wrestling to neutralise any boxing from JDS ,as soon as Cain landed a couple of punches he was then going for a take down.
It was the perfect game plan to beat JDSs style of long range boxing ,Cain did not let him have that space where JDS gets his punches off and where JDS feels most comfortable .
OK, what did Cain not do?
You make it sound like he was just rushing in like Lesnar and landing a "couple of punches".
It was nowhere near that simple. He made so many adjustments and did so many small things with his movement that all paid off. I don't think you really understand what he was doing and your brain just saw that he got inside and landed punches, which is A to B.
That's called ignorance because you're ignoring the details. You make it sound like his camp just told him, "go forward homes, grab, attack homie, throw a couple punches bro". You trying to refer to my post as stupid when you can't even add any details or discuss how Cain got inside is stupid.
Pot stirring idiots like yourself are why people make dumb decisions for other people when they have power. It is because you don't know how to critically examine something because a dumb brain prefers A + B = C. You keep doing basic math and leave the rest of the thinking up to people who know how to do it.
Oh, and your last paragraph was just you repeating what I said in my prediction post about how Cain would win, after I explained in more detail in that how Cain would need to get inside. You just ripped my shit off too you simpleton.
Youve even confused yourself ,you poor bred backward retard ,wonder what diseased c0ck idiots like you drip off the end of !
You should actually watch the fights you comment on.
ADD's post was spot on. Your reply to him certainly doesn't help you not look like a moran. As a matter of fact, it's like a moran billboard. Way to go.
ADD, what would you think JDS has to do for the rubber match? Something similar to the adustments Chuck made for Randy is my thinking.
Also, how would you see Cain vs the Reem?
AttentionDeficitDizzle - Just watching him punch for a couple minutes I can already identify two major fundamental weaknesses a good striker would exploit.
1. He opens up when he throws, does not protect himself, and is always exposed while he throws punches. A decent counter-puncher would only need 1 round to counter him and start confusing him and reduce him to pacing and being tentative and boring to watch. He leaves his head open, has no fundamental movement in how he throws that protects his head, which hardly moves.
All Cain would need to do is move forward left or right, under or over those punches, and counter. He could step in and come over that jab with a right hand and JDS would have his head just sitting there waiting to be hit. Most fighters probably move back and step away from JDS, which is a poor strategy because of his speed and reach and accuracy when he has distance. You don't want to give him distance. You need to cut him off coming forward and get inside him and come over his jab and step around him and hook him down and up. Guys like him have nothing without distance and their opponents move backward away from their power. When they can come forward and step into punches throwing those lazy wide open punches and their opponent isn't cutting them off making them pay for it, they get confident and keep coming forward and learn those kinds of habits. If he's had good competition in the ring he would be getting caught and confused early in fights.
2. JDS isn't pivoting into his punches with natural body movement where he's moving his head and shoulders and swaying in and out and efficiently breathing and throwing combinations that are natural shots.
This means not only is he exposed and not covering up, but he's predictable and inefficient, which means if you engage him and keep him busy punching while cutting him off then he'll tire quickly. No one who fights like that can avoid getting tired late in a fight. If Cain bangs inside with him and counters him, ties him up, does not create a lot of distance for JDS to open up and get space to unload his power, then JDS will tire. Cain should continuously pressure JDS and move forward into him, step around him to the side away from his power hand, go to the body, tie him up and frustrate him, counter him, it'll be easy to wear him out and set him up for the KO or a to be taken down. He needs to not let JDS have distance to throw those power shots. That's scary for a lot of guys because it goes against instinct but against poor punchers it is gold.
Holy sh!t!
You are the man!!!!!!!!!!!
Wasa-B - ADD, what would you think JDS has to do for the rubber match? Something similar to the adustments Chuck made for Randy is my thinking.
Also, how would you see Cain vs the Reem?
For JDS to win the rubber match he'll have to do several things:
1. He needs to work on counter punching.
There are two major areas where he's weak with his counters. He's weak moving backward and fighting on his heels when he's trying to counter, only throwing one shot at a time with no balance and no accuracy and at about 1/2 of his normal speed. He's also does not move to the right or left when he's being attacked, he backs up. He should be stepping to the side setting up his right hand counter, which should be cocked and ready just above his hip so he can step and then snap that fucker and bring power at the end of it. No chance in hell Cain avoids that right hand if JDS steps to the side and opens up a snapping super-fast counter, and then follows that punch up with a super-fast combination while still moving his feet around Cain to gain even more angle. He needs to spin Cain around when Cain comes in and punish him with hand speed. The best way to move from a boxing stance into a takedown defense is when you step away from the takedown you move in the direction that opens up your power shot, which is usually by moving to the side and circling.
You keep that shot cocked close to your body slightly on your hip so it snaps out really fast and quick with the power at the tail end of it. You should not be cocking that punch back at all before you throw it, it should pop off your hip like a laser. Floyd is a good example of how technical this should be. It is critical to throw it so it snaps because if your opponent tries backing out of it or moving their head away from the punch they'll just be making it 10X worse for themselves. If the opponent gets too close to you for you to get it off because you don't have the distance to commit to the length of the counter punch, you snap your elbow forward off your hip and turn your weight into the elbow and go straight for your opponent's head with the elbow and your weight. It'll immediately push your opponent back if it doesn't do damage and it'll stifle the takedown attempt and open your right arm up to get under the clinch or push off for room or you can even throw a follow-up upper cut or additional counter off-angle. That is true dirty boxing...that elbow is an old school roughhouse technique to hurt guys trying to bang with you and grab onto you. A really short powerful counter hook is very effective when you don't have the room for a full straight counter when you circle. If you have fluid motion when you throw that counter you should be moving away from your opponent's charge but stepping sideways while at the same time motioning your body and leverage into your punch so if you can't throw a full punch you'll at least be able to throw a hard short powerful elbow (or hook) with all your weight behind it because you're motion moving to the side allows you to naturally turn back in and pivot for a power elbow or hook. In that same motion as your elbow or counter punch is coming across you should already be preparing your balance for more stepping out further to the side to deflect the opponent's forward progress away from you because your opponent will be reacting to you trying to change their progress toward you. In boxing it is simply just slipping out the side but in MMA you can adapt it to countering a take down. You can use it to create space to follow up with a combination and spin your opponent off balance, or just free up space to continue jabbing to get even more space to set up a combination. If JDS can learn to counter by moving to the side, circling, and using natural motion to free up counter punches, he can definitely make just enough room for a short tight hook. One of the single greatest short hooks I've ever seen was from a prospect who popped up on Friday Night Fights a few times called Tokunbo Olajide. He had such smooth effective motion and could knock people out countering with just a few inches of space because he moved so efficiently before he turned into his hooks. JDS needs to learn to do that because Cain's takedown strategy early in the 1st was to come straight in and Cain's chin and head was primed for this hook counter, or the snapping right, but it looked like he knew JDS was going to move backward and only move to the side late if he couldn't throw a straight right. They knew JDS needed room to throw and didn't know how to circle balanced and quick like.
- JDS needs to learn how to move his trunk, head, and feet when he punches so he's throwing punches in a natural rhythmic motion so his punches are efficient, so his head and body are always moving to set-up follow-up punches, and so he's not predictable when he's being countered by Cain. Cain always knew right where JDS was leaving his head. By using smooth movement and breathing right you don't get tired as quickly so you can maintain this movement into later rounds. JDS literally had no head movement as the fight wore on, even when Cain had his hands down and was shooting in slowly. Cain could've been dropped cold if JDS would've just moved his head a little, stepped around Cain, and threw a few punches in a natural motion. He needs to learn to bounce and bend his knees under a rope like Tyson and bring punches as he's in motion. If he moves like that then his center of gravity is low while his feet are balanced and apart. His hands would also always be much easier to keep up to protect himself, and it makes it much harder to be taken down because you don't have to drop down a level, you're already ready and low enough. When JDS threw punches he was always up high and not moving his trunk and head and shoulders downward unless Cain was changing levels on him and shooting in. Each time he had to protect himself from the takedown he did it from a high position being upright and then having to come down low and drop his hands and move backward. He should already be somewhat low and ready and not moving straight back. He should be moving to the side around Cain and be hitting him with counters but be low enough to move in a fluid motion to where he's quickly able to prevent a takedown.
He could do this by bobbing as he moves and throws, while stepping away from danger and at the same time stepping around to open his power up and counter. As he circles he should also be throwing fast jabs to help maintain distance. If at any point while he circles he can get Cain to fail a takedown attempt, which he did several times in the 1st, Cain recovers slowly I noticed and is off balance slightly when he repositions himself. That is an excellent time to pepper him with jabs and a counters.
- JDS needs to protect his face.
If he hopes to beat Cain in a 3rd fight then JDS needs to learn to keep his earmuffs on and protect his face. He needs to learn to defend in several different ways. First, and foremost, because this is really obvious, is when he is being charged and moving back he is always vulnerable. He has to learn defensive movement to the side, as well as tight fast circling, while keeping his hands up.
Second thing, even when he moves straight back on his heels to throw punches he is slowing down and opening up his head, which is the fundamental opposite of what a counter's purpose is. A counter is not only supposed to be offensive but defensive as well. It shouldn't make you even more vulnerable and open. When Mayweather over-commits to an overhand right counter off his hip, he bobs his head and comes under and out in one swift fluid motion, makes it near impossible to hit him and counter him and it is very frustrating and efficient, and it takes him very little effort and energy to throw that punch because it is so mechanical and balanced. He breathes as he throws it and continues breathing properly after so it looks effortless. With big guys you see them hold their breath and throw wild and wide and open up and come in like a bull, then come out straight up and slow. Most people if they land that counter they don't follow it up and breathe while they try to finish someone. You see the bigger guys doing this as well. So the second thing is that when he counters he needs to do it technically and break the habit of allowing his counters to be countered. He also needs to breathe better as he does this so he's not tiring himself out from Cain's constant attack.
Third, besides his lateral movement for protection, he has a really bad habit of throwing and leaving himself open and being flat-footed after normal punches, which is over-commitment to the position and punches. Punches in fights fundamentally should be leading into other follow-up punches (unless you're just commanding pace and distance and movement with a jab), or the movement from them should be leading you away from being countered, but when you punch you should not just be leaving the punch out there along with your body and head. There should be constant motion, with you only resting or being stationary when you're out of danger. If you're just demonstrating ring generalship you'd be moving your feet or be bouncing while u regroup between series of jabs, but never just be caught stuck out there in no man's land. JDS's vulnerability for being hit is compounded by not moving his upper body while also being flat footed, so he's predictable, upright, and too slow to react to Cain's offense. He doesn't slide and move anything above his waist, just puts his hands out there, doesn't bring them back to cover his face while making all these mistakes.
The 4th thing, his trainers need to change their approach and get fucking mean with him. No more supporting his ego, being friends with him, he needs a Mick with a smoker's cough to put him in his place and scream at him for any lazy training.
Obviously whoever is training him is not slapping him around with the mitts for his indiscretions. His trainer should be seeing that open head and then slapping him every time he leaves his head out there like that, even when warming up. If his trainer does not break down that habit in the gym then an opponent like Cain will beat him up again with simple counters.
He also needs to train with someone his height who is much skinnier and faster who can spar with him and chase him around the ring and help him practice his foot movement and balance when he steps around the ring. JDS was flat footed and off balance too many times and needs to work on scrambling around and being chased and avoiding punches. He needs chicken-catching speed. The quicker his reaction time is moving on his feet and circling and stepping around the ring the faster he'll be able to react to takedowns and thus be having more chances setting up counters. The better he is at movement the less effective Cain's attack will be for punches as well. If JDS were able to essentially neutralize Cain's stand up, especially when Cain is coming in and not shooting for a takedown, but is punching, then if JDS can learn to move around those and counter them and then press forward he will have half of the fight won cold. If JDS is fighting a Cain Velasquez who cannot hit him cleanly and JDS is properly circling then all Cain has is wrestling. JDS demonstrated in the fight that he can definitely handle himself well enough being clinched and on the ground. He managed to get back up plenty of times, avoid subs, so he's good there. If he takes away Cain's offense on the feet then JDS can definitely win the fight.
He was relatively quick for the first minute of the fight fending off Cain going low and shooting on him, but he wore himself out quickly and started dropping his hands even lower than normal until he was even more wide open to be hit, which is what Cain wanted. I kind of suspect Cain wasn't really trying to take him down as much as get him to start dropping down to anticipate the takedown. It helped burn up some of JDS's early energy and speed and just made him even more open to being hit. This was not simply from Cain shooting in on him though. It was also from JDS holding his breath, having slow feet, slow reaction time, not predicting as quickly when Cain was coming in to counter him, and it was from being off balance and uncomfortable and not countering Cain effectively enough early on to get him to just stop rushing him so easily and so often. If JDS would've countered effectively and wasn't so off balance and wide open he would have still tired early because he holds his breath and still only throws one to two shots at a time. He had no combinations, no real smooth jab either.
ttt
Some people will argue that JDS is too big to fight like a smaller guy, or because he's an MMA fighter he doesn't need much boxing ability, just knockout power, but that's not true when you've already seen him get exploited. It proves that he needs to improve his fundamentals. If you're gonna work on your boxing then do it right and try to be better every single day. I've seen plenty of large boxers who are big but smooth and quick on their feet, and who are fast with combinations, and who can move their heads, who are also well conditioned. There aren't many lately because the sport of pro boxing has fallen off, but there have been plenty of awesome big guys.
JDS is a professional athlete and can learn all of these techniques. Even someone as squat and muscular and wide as Shane Carwin could learn to move like a middleweight. Shane has some fast hands but slower feet and slower lateral movement while striking and moving away from punches than what you'd typically see from someone smaller, which of course is normal. Because of his size and obviously how he's learned his boxing technique are factored together. You see that a lot with really big guys, they tend to build habits that help them conserve energy and retain their power. That is effective until you face someone with incredible stamina who has studied you and knows where you are vulnerable and who will hit you when your habits allow them to...and they will wear you out until you're a zombie.
The larger guys should actually be doing the opposite approach when training. They obviously have to learn to do basics and fundamentals, but they also have to learn to efficiently move everything at once and breathe right as they do it. Power comes from the leverage and efficiency of motion and technique, as well as conditioning, not simply from their size. Throwing punches correctly first with movement and efficiency and repetition is key for ultimate power.
You should want to practice conditioning and maintaining form with these monsters while you have them tired, and force these big guys to continuously move and throw and step and come in and out and move as many of their body parts in one efficient balanced motion as possible when they are tired and most vulnerable. They should always be in a fighter's stance and be reactive and ready and unpredictable, and never ever drop their hands. If they get that tired then they should pull guard or clinch and rest against the cage.
So that is part of #4 as a key to winning against Cain if you're JDS; the approach to his training needs to change to making him conditioned and efficient so he's throwing as many proper punches as he needs to without tiring.
They should not look like JDS did in those sparring videos where he's upright, keeps resting, keeps opening up, dropping his hands, keeps throwing inefficient punches that would tire him out early, not moving his feet, not being pressed backward, not keeping him alert for counters with the mitts and pressure. Even in basic sparring you should be trying to simulate a fight so your fighter isn't taking breaks and sluffing off. The only time you should not be slapping them back with the mitts when they drop their hands is if you're showing them something new, like a combination or a movement, otherwise you're conditioning their brain to revert back to bad habits. You don't want to mess with their brain wiring if you've taught them a bunch of proper techniques. You can mess with them accidentally by letting them warm up improperly, and you would not know you are doing it to them. Once you break them down and mold them, you should avoid anything that allows them to revert back to old habits when they have gloves on. Even their warm-up should be reinforcing good habits from training. When you watch really hungry motherfuckers coming up in the ranks on an undercard and you see them warming up in the locker room serious as a heart attack. You see them moving everything and coming under the mitts and coming in and out and throwing punches with mean intentions into the mitts while maintaining their technique. You wont see them just playing pattycake to break a sweat.
Andrew Golota Vs. John Ruiz was a fight that I think I remember where you had a big guy (Golota) throwing a lot of combinations and moving really well at certain points before round 5. Ruiz was constantly coming in and hugging him and Golota made him pay for it as well a few times. Film on that fight could be broken down to see what generally can work with counters and foot movement around someone who is charging and grabbing and mixing their attack up with weird punches. The 2nd half of that fight is kinda whack and I'm not a huge Golota fan but the fight has some interesting movements to study if you're a big guy like Carwin or JDS who wants to prepare against any sort of clincher.
I think JDS can beat Cain for sure if JDS improves his vulnerable flaws. If he can learn some good fluid counters, especially 4 bread and butter counters to a predictable takedown attempt.
In no particular order these would be:
1. With an initial step right: overhand snapping right from hip, no pull back, just quick like Mayweather.
2. With an initial step right: right elbow/push followed by a natural movement further out the side, possibly followed up by a few short quick jabs followed by a KO right from hell because your opponent would be off balance correcting toward you from the failed takedown. Cain was off balance like this several times, it is common in MMA.
3. With an initial step right: short right counter hook, like Olajide, who I referred to earlier. That counter should be resting on the hip, cocked and ready, and would be used for less distance after the lateral step out.
4. With an intial step right: uppercut, step back for space, then multiple combinations to follow up
If JDS were to move to his left instead because of the cage being in the way, or just choose to go left, he could use his left hand at first, which should already be in front of him for jabs, and use that to help protect his face and also block Cain's right, and while he's stepping to the left he could be motioning in for a right counter from there as well because Cain would be walking into his power.
JDS just has to get comfortable moving his feet to where he can time these counters and react fast enough to keep moving out the side and naturally into balanced position for follow up punches or more space to clear himself.
That is one way to stifle that attack early and create a deterrence. If JDS can sway like the ocean in and out, then add better head protection, as well as change his training approach and his breathing and speed and conditioning, then he can beat Cain. If Cain is not able to do much on the ground, and he's not able to counter JDS and hit him on the feet and confuse him and get him moving backward, then Cain only has 2 options. At that point he will only be able to get clinches for takedowns to win on points, or he'll have to keep it standing and trade without the luxury of countering JDS so easily. That would be a very tough fight for anyone.
JDS already has power, he wont lose it by training high volume movement and conditioning for speed and accuracy. JDS already has great clinch/ground technique, and will survive down there just with minimal training to maintain skills he's already demonstrated.
JDS needs to be pushed in the gym so that they tire him out and then get him in the ring with someone who can test his footwork and head movement and speed. They should stick him in a ring tired with some quick young guy, and then push him to regulate his breathing while he moves away from pressure, but at the same time make him keep his hands up and work on his countering and everything together at once. You usually see fighters' technique break down early when they get exhausted, so they need to get JDS to that point then make him rely on technique and fundamentals and breathing and using his brain to counteract the effects.
Whenever he fucks up they need to push him to correct what he's doing until he feels like collapsing. They need to make it so that he cannot ever consider dropping his hands, not consider anything but moving and circling, nor ever throw punches exposed or over-comitted, and they have to get him to where even when he's tired he is breathing properly and moving efficiently, whether he's throwing or not. He needs to learn that the only thing that will save him and help him get out of exhaustion is controlling his body and pace and movements with sound technique. Hell, they could push him by not only having him chased around the ring by a quick puncher but then throw in a 2nd guy to occasionally press on him and clinch with him and try to take him down. If they can get him to panic then they can test his breathing.
If you can have that sort of focus and concentration and control over your body and don't allow your technique to get broken down, and you are consistent and have trained for a long fight and high volume of punches, then your fundamentals will save you when you get hurt, tired, or confused. If you have technique, prep, and a good corner then you can make fast steady adjustments and regain your composure if shit happens. If you panic and get frustrated and lose your balance and are taking punishment and you are not breathing and your defense is weak and you are not making the other guy pay for relentlessly coming out because you have no counters and no answer and no one in your corner knows how to get you to make fast adjustments, then you're in for a 5 round beating, again.
A perfect example of this was when Marco Antonio Barrera fought Kennedy McKinney in that 12 round war. Barrera's technique got exposed by McKinney and for the 1st time in Barrera's career he had a guy who was in late with him tagging him with counter right hands off the hip and making him pay. At one point maybe like round 7, McKinney had started to back Barrera up and confuse him. It was the first time Barrera was hurt in a fight and then was knocked down and was confused. Between rounds Marco's corner had made some adjustments and although Barrera couldn't immediately fix the flaw that made him vulnerable to the right hand counter, he started making McKinney pay for throwing the right. Then he changed the pace of the fight and began coming forward avoiding the right as much as possible. When he opened up on McKinney he was still getting tagged with the right but not as hard because he started going to the body and coming up and moving away from the power and changing how McKinney kept circling him. He then added a couple of set-up combinations to the pressure and followed those up with some hard shots and then boom, he came across and knocked McKinney down. That was an incredible fight, McKinney came back and was game and actually hurt Barrera again but the ref fucked up and jumped in and halted the action because of a mouthpiece, but McKinney made a slight adjustment as well prior to the round after he got hurt.
After the ref interruption, the round ended, then Barrera made some more adjustments and came out firing and KO'd McKinney like in the last fucking round to take the war. That fight is a really great example of solid corners, solid fundamentals, tiny adjustments, huge differences in momentum because of adjustments, and how important one or two small things are in a stand-up fight when you have two well-conditioned guys at the top of the heap.
If you're JDS and you come into the next fight with Cain in top shape, with solid fundamentals, a strong corner, then that will possibly be the greatest UFC heavyweight fight of all time because you'll see some exchanges and momentum shifts, and possibly a 5 round war. I kinda think JDS would get him out of there early but Cain has a great chin so you never know, you could have the most epic fight at heavy.
I'm only posting all these long posts for the benefit of myself and a few people on the thread, and am done for now, gotta go do data analysis. I hope it was interesting for the boxing fans.
And the reason I brought up Carwin previously is because Shane is a solid wrestler, has some seriously fast hands, and the only reason he isn't the heavy champ after the Lesnar fight was just a minor mistake in breathing. Lesnar got flat out lucky after that mauling that Shane was tired enough to give up the choke. That was not from Lesnar beating him as much as it was from Shane beating him but not finishing early enough, while maintaining his stamina. He fucked Lesnar up and I consider Carwin to be someone who can regain the title he had in his grasp, and take the division if he trains properly and changes up some of his approach.
I can see Carwin destroying everyone in the division with his potential and his hand speed and power. He has a lot of natural ability for being that damned big; the guy is a monster. If Shane were to train with someone like Teddy Atlas for a year and come back with polished hands then the division would have no chance. Shane can handle the take down clinch game and could train to force any current heavyweight fighter to have to stand toe-to-toe with him. If he was polished and conditioned with his natural tools and size and added a little more movement and worked on a few things then I think he'd be the man for a long time. With him I don't think it is lack of talent or tools, it is more to do with training, distractions, and mental focus.
I realize he's not mentioned much anymore because everyone is fixated on Reem and Cain and JDS and Cormier and Jones and Werdum, but if you have a polished Carwin in there who's smooth, well conditioned, and focused, with his hands I think he takes it from whomever. I would not bet against a solid Carwin coming in ready.
This HW division is getting pretty exciting. I'm anxious to see how things turn out.
As for Cain Vs. Reem, Reem has no chin, no heart, panics whenever he gets hit, is used to maintaining distance with kicks and punches, and is always mentally never really in a fight because of his ego and attitude. He thinks about not losing when he goes into a fight and really doubts himself when he's in a tough fight. He would use his strength to push and try to fight off the pressure against the cage, he would try to muscle distance and open up, but Cain would keep tying him up and eventually get him down and from there Reem would probably give up a choke and/or just look like shit down there mentally. It wouldn't be an impressive win for Cain.
I think Reem would look into Cain's eyes and actually be afraid because he hasn't faced anyone that dangerous or relentless recently...or, like ever. He knew JDS was good, and I'm sure recognized that if he fought Cain he would be taking a similar beating, but maybe worse, because JDS can handle himself on the ground and in a scramble. He has heart, but Reem, he'd be mentally broken far quicker than physically. Reem is an easy game plan for Cain's people.
SN bets?
Cain vs JDS reminded me of Fedor vs CroCop. The guy that was supposed to be the better striker was actually proven that he was not. Striking in MMA and striking in boxing are two different things. A kickboxer like CroCop got his ass kicked on the feet, and the same thing happened to a boxer like JDS. At the end of the day Cain is the better MMA striker, JDS will beat him in a boxing match, but when you combine take dows and other stuff allowed in MMA Cain's striking is superior. No different from Fedor who would have lost to Crocop in a kickboxing match but dominated the striking in MMA.
jiujitsufigher7 - Cain vs JDS reminded me of Fedor vs CroCop. The guy that was supposed to be the better striker was actually proven that he was not. Striking in MMA and striking in boxing are two different things. A kickboxer like CroCop got his ass kicked on the feet, and the same thing happened to a boxer like JDS. At the end of the day Cain is the better MMA striker, JDS will beat him in a boxing match, but when you combine take dows and other stuff allowed in MMA Cain's striking is superior. No different from Fedor who would have lost to Crocop in a kickboxing match but dominated the striking in MMA.
In the 1st round Fedor was hurt when he opened himself up. Crocop landed a straight flush shot because he saw Fedor coming in wide open. Fedor at the time tended to use crazy speed and aggression, but was always pretty wild coming in. Cropcop exploited him that 1st round and tagged him and had him hurt. The problem was after he caught Fedor he followed up when Fedor was staggered by coming straight in squared up and Fedor countered him. Crocop didn't come in protecting himself in a natural motion with a patient attack. He saw blood, got aggressive, Fedor survived by countering him when he saw an open head with no movement. Same thing JDS does when he attacks, no head movement.
Prior to that, early in the 1st you saw Crocop mess up a few times by leaving himself open, but he generally circled and mixed up kicks and combinations and did move his head around, even when he was backpedaling. He never messed up bad enough early that Fedor was able to land anything really clean. This is something JDS never did. Crocop's defense was better than JDS's by a long shot. JDS can't throw moving away, Crocop did against Fedor. JDS also didn't move his feet enough and circle, which is something Crocop did. Problem with Crocop is when he had his moments he didn't control Fedor and Fedor was able to yank him down or push him around and react and regain control.
Fedor's fights always showed how wide his shots are. He's so damned aggressive and fast though he rarely got exploited and had to pay for coming in crazy like that. His speed and accuracy were always something he relied on. Whenever he did get hurt he just got crazier and brought pressure. He wasn't someone who just immediately gassed and started holding his breath.
You would never see that kind of temperament from someone like Reem or JDS or Mir or Werdum. Fedor was very very unusual. Even great boxers don't usually react that way. Fedor was on a different level with how he reacted to being hit and pressured. He wasn't the most technical guy in a frenzied state but his speed and accuracy and aggression were unmatched. You can't teach that kind of heart.
I would not compare those match-ups too closely just because that fight you mentioned was so unusual. JDS and Cain do not fight like Crocop or Fedor did back then.
JDS and his camp have released a lot of excuses in the media since the loss. He didn't look like he had any issues when he started the 1st pushing away Cain and throwing punches at him and fighting the way he normally does. He looked like the same JDS from previous fights until Cain got to him with the adjustments and aggressive game plan. He landed a couple of decent shots early in the fight but was done as soon as Cain got inside on him and worked him into an uncomfortable fight.
Cain flat out beat him and fought better. He had a better style, better camp, and much better stamina. Cain won plain and simple.