Great thread!!
But I think some points that are being raised aren't dealing with the historical facts.
The original Gracie brothers, Carlos, Oswaldo, Gastao, Jorge (also spelled George) and Helio; all did some NHB fighting. The majority of the time they fought with the gi.
There are pictures (alot were published in Japanese Magazines) that show some of these brothers fighting in NHB with the gi on. In fact Helio fought Santana with the gi on (both were wearing the gi). Both Carlson and Santana fought in the first fight and without it in the rest of their fights.
Of the original brothers I don't think any of them fought without the gi in NHB. Carlson fought without it after fighting with it in his first fight with Santana.
NHB wasn't always legal in Brazil. So to properly follow the evolution of the sport you have to know the times when it was legal and illegal.
The no-gi NHB revolution pretty much started with Carlson in the 50s.
Brazil did produce a world boxing champ. In fact he is consider one of the better boxers in history and is apart of the boxing hall of fame. His name is Edor Jofre (not sure of the spelling of the first name, however he is in the Boxing Register book, which is the book listing the records of all the boxers who have been inducted into the Boxing Hall of Fame. Jofre is in company with great champions like Ali, Frazier, Louis, Dempsey, Baer, Charles, Marciano etc).
Like I said Bjj as it relates NHB as far as no-gi is concern can be traced to Carlson Gracie and not the original brothers.
>So,the regular weekend ymca judoka has nothing in common with vale-tudo as the sport jiu-jitsu player dosn`t
I am learning a lot I didn't know and am grateful to all for their input. if someone could just find a way to transfer this kind of intelligence, restraint, and experience to the UG, my dream would be come true.
A few more things about Bjj that I think are misunderstood.
Bjj as taught, at least in the beginning by the original brothers (it truly was a family affair. No one Gracie from the original brothers can lay claim to the art. They all partook in it. Although Carlos and Helio seem to get most of the attention -and out of those two Helio seems to get the most - according to an article that appeared in an issue of Otatame a Brazilian Martial arts Magazine written by a student of the old Gracie Academy, other Gracies were involved in teaching the art. George Gracie (also spelled Jorge) was particularly mentioned as having made huge contributions in the teaching and development of the art. But it is said he was an introvert and stayed away from the lime light. He died in 1991. Oswaldo, did alot of NHB fighting but he died in 1940), was part self defense techniques and part groundfighting. That is, the curriculum was split between those two areas. In fact those self defense technique Helios teaches in that newest Gracie video are the ones which were taught and practiced at the first academy.
According to Jacare training was split 50/50 between those type of techniques which are called Defesosa Personal (or something like that) and sport techniques, which are essentially the groundfighting stuff. Now this was during Jacare's training days which was in the 70s and early 80s. Contrary to popular belief sport Bjj in terms of competitions were very rare. They occurred like once a year or once year few years. So there wasn't any training per se that was geared toward sport competition so Bjj wasn't like it is today. The training was stand-up self defense and groundfighting split equally between the two.
Carlson was specifically trained for the NHB ring no-gi because he fought NHB. So he did alot of no-gi training as well as alot of boxing training (he stated in an interview in Martial Arts Combat Magazine that he did alot of boxing). I assume alot of his training was innovations based on his experiences because around the time he started to fight is when NHB no-gi competition seem to be pretty intense. I know his father is credited with training him (although Carlson claims his father didn't formally teach him Bjj, but rather he learned from watching his father practice and asking him questions. He states this in the magazine interview previously mentioned) so I assume Carlos helped to refine the Bjj techniques to fit the no-gi situation.
So Bjj of Helio's and Carlos era is somewhat different from today's version at least from the stand-point of how it was taught and how they trained. I think the stand-up self defense techniques have to be look at and compared to Judo too. Because those were/are apart of Bjj and made up a big part of the style, both in terms of teaching and training.
Another thing Bjj's current belt system didn't come into place until 1968 or so. According to an article on the Global Training Website. Helio and some of his old student (Alvaro Barretto and some others) developed the current Bjj belt system around the same time the created the first Bjj federation. Before that there were only two belts in Bjj beside white belt which was for beginners. They were light Blue for instructors, dark blue for assistant instructors and as already mentioned white for beginners.
So these things need to be considered. I don't doubt that Bjj came from Judo. I also believe that Judo helped Bjj to develop over the years, because many students and formal students of the original Gracie's studied Judo, some in Japan (George Medhi and Oswaldo Alves). But Bjj also had developed its own techniques. Now most think it was the groundfighting, but I think its mostly the stand-up self defense techniques. Now I agree those aren't much better than some of others out there. But Helio seems to take more pride in those than many want to believe and he does consider them aprt of the "work" and "innovation" of Bjj. And t
"Now most think it was the groundfighting, but I think its mostly the stand-up self defense techniques. Now I agree those are much better than some of others out there. But Helio seems to take more pride in those than many want to believe. And these techniques are found in Judo."
I don't understand the last paragraph that well...
You feel that bjj developed more new stand-up self defence techniques than ground techniques? But you also feel that there are better stand-up self defence techniques available? However, Helio is prouder of his standup developments than he is his ground developments (in terms of new stuff)?
thanks
Interesting gentlemen, perhaps you can do me a favor...
show me the evidence that they were fighting without their jackets in the early "no holds barred events" you speak of?
We have a great body of evidence that "recorded history" as given to us by the Gracies is flawed at best. Calling Kimura a "jiujitsu" world champion comes to mind. In EVERY film of the era see (Helio fighting anyone for example) you will notice they are wearing the jackets.
I suspect these "NHB" matches were NOTHING like the events of this day. Or should I point out that the "helio vs karate school" part of the in action tape has everyone in a Gi, BUT, Rickson's match against the Judo guy has him NOT wearing a gi top. Kinda makes my point.
Moreover, Brazil was not alone in this concept. We can look to the history in England for numerous "Music Hall" events of a simular nature. However, upon a closer look, most of these matches had a very strict set of rules, or were in reality works.
I stand on the simple fact that the "no gi" version was not and could not have been taught either before or concurrent to, Madea teaching in Brazil. It had to have "evloved" AFTER said instruction took place.
Again people are pushing the idea that Madea was some how "more" than a Kodokan Judo expert, but in EVERY case no one has named the bujutsu jujutsu he is suposed to be master of. There is a very good book out there now that lists them, and the men who ran them, so I would think it would be easy to find his ryu-ha, if it is there.
Clearly this is the same flummery that Kimura attempted. To avoid problems with fighting for money by the Kodokan by calling their matches "jujitsu" matches rather than Judo matches. It is interesting to note that Kimura was kicked out of the Kodokan for doing so, but Madea never was. Perhaps because he fought under a different name and Kimura used his own.
Finally, to the silly little children, this discussion is for adults. The children will be removed from the room.
Actually we have spoken of it at length, as well as the tapes Rorion made on the subject.
Moreover, if we are going to talk about progress, then let us also speak of the americian combat judo of WW2; or Fairbairns Judo, etc and et al.
Brazilians were not the only ones moving things forward.
What a great thread. I think most reasonable people accept the judo into bjj lineage, but any time you have a large group of people practicing anything, their isolation from other groups will breed a different technique. When the isolation ends, so does all the b.s. What remains is genuine innovation and should be credited to the ones who used it to beat the ones who didn't. I find the discussion of lineage and history fascinating, but I am troubled when the practitioners of a style try and imply historical superiority. Look at the oldest pictures of men fighting in ritual manner, and you will see something that looks very much like the ufc.
"And these techniques aren't found in Judo."
Describe a few.....
good point m.g. , "defesa pessoal" or the gracie/BJJ self defense is an important part of BJJ (along with vale tudo) that never really gets brought upin this debates.
e.g.
defense from:
bear hugs
front grabs
punches, kicks
headlocks
etc...
most legit BJJ academies (especially ones associated with rickson) have this intergrated with the curriculum.
Btw just a side note, there is no "helio vs karate school" video, helio did not fight in the video you are talking of.
"Btw just a side note, there is no "helio vs karate school" video, helio did not fight in the video you are talking of."
It was his school, fighting the karate school, on the Gracie in action video.
While he did not fight himself, his school did, and he made sure they fought such challenges.
The point was they all wore a GI.
I was saying it was his school and linage as the extension of my point. I will be much more specific in future comments to avoid the picking of nits.
You also need to take a much closer look at Kotani Sensei's kata book, especially the Rensho-ho part.
Almost everything you are talking about is in there.
No I really don't think the point can be made that the Atemi begat the Tudo stuff.
Atemi-waza is not very much like boxing at all and the tudo stuff really is.
That is clearly a mix of the judo material and other outside sources.
There are a few Bjj self-defense moves that I haven't seen in Judo. Most I've seen variations in Jujutsu.
Now before we get into a big long discussion about Jujutsu let me deal with the self-defense moves in Bjj that I feel aren't in Judo.
Now first off, the Bjj self-defense techniques I'm taking about are the ones Helio demostrates on the latest Gracie Academy Video, which a few people couldn't believe I would pay good money for, the reason why I'm talking about these is because these are the technique Helio claims to develop as part of the Gracie curriculum and are among the 40 lesson they teach as introduction to Bjj (or I should say Gjj). Now supposedly most of these SD techniques are on the other SD tapes Rorion has made. I haven't seen those. I have seen his Rapesafe tape and a few of the techniques on the newest one are on that one. I've also seen Sylvio Berhing teach the core Bjj SD techniques on the seminar video on www.fightcenter.com
So these are IMHO the standard or accepted Bjj SD.
When I think Judo SD techniques I'm talking about the ones that apart of the Judo syllabus like the techniques in both of Judo's SD katas (incidently one of the katas was develop years later after Bjj was developed so it is hard to say that Bjj took SD techniques from that Kata). I also accept SD techniques as part of the Judo curriculum when they have been demostrated and taught by a Judoka in the past in a book; for example the SD techniques in the book Kano Jiujitsu, or the SD technique in Mifune's book Canon of Judo (there are a few in there). Or SD techniques of any KNOWN Judoka of the past like Kudo or Oda. Since these guys and others like them trained at the Kodokan before and around the time Bjj was developing in Brazil I can accept that the SD techniques they demostrate are pretty much the ones taught at the Kodokan at that time. So there are the offical SD techniques in the Judo katas and the Sd techniques Judokas of the time practiced and taught.
Anything else like WWII combat Judo, Fairbairns Judo or the like in IMHO doesn't mean much too me because those art forms are not directly tied to Bjj. I'm making a direct comparison to SD techniques taught in Kodokan Judo and Bjj. And not comparison between any specialized combat Judo or any off-shoot style of Judo.
Now if anyone is familiar with Bjj SD knows most of the techniques have been demostrated by the Gracie's in magazines. Particularly in the early does of promoting the art here in the U.S (pre-UFC around 88 and 92).
Now a few of them are IHMO basic common sense SD moves. Like the defense again a front kick with a osoto gari or defense against a single hand lapel grab with a hip throw or defense against a rear naked choke grab with a forward throw. Most of these are very elementary and most likely did exist in Judo.
But a few of them are the: opponent grabs your lapel or hand and you duckunder and twist his arm type thing. Those I've seen in many Jujutsu styles including Hapkido and Aikido but not Judo. In fact Helio demostrates alot of that finger twisting, wrist lock type thing which is characteristic of the Jujutsu cliche. He did alot more of that then I expected him to do.
The many core SD Bjj techniques like when you opponent grabs you in a bear hug from the front and you drop base, push on their hips with both hands - creating space, step to the side and then go for the hip throw. I haven't seen that one in Judo. Some of the guillotine defense I haven't seen in Judo either (the one where you defend by doing a type of sacrifice throw probably does exist in Judo but the others where you body slam the guy I don't think so)
There are a few more that I want to describe that I feel don't exist in Judo. But let me look at the video to give you a better description.
Quincy, as I really don't want to rock the boat, let me say this as kindly as I can, I really disagree with this comment:
".It would have only taken him to see what MMA does for a person to see that the building of charcture is still core in the training and a result of the training."
I submit to you sir I can list FAR MORE points and examples of the total lack of same in MMA, if only the personal example's shown to me and the examples of posts on these boards.
I understand why some people who post here want to see it differently. But that too is a tricky subject to discuss without going over old issues.
Let's just leave it at that. In as much as Kano was VERY against ANY sort of "jujutsu" prize fighting, and we have a lot of his writings to show that, we can fairly safely say he would not see MMA/NHB as a place he wanted his Kodokan Judo to be.
Judo is not a style,it has been labeled a style but it`s very own principles defy it ever being one.
Jiu-Jitsu is always a style,it has no principle and is only action guided by principle.Without Do (or a way), Jitsu could never be applied....
So there is NEVER Jiu-Jitsu without Judo.And the truth is,there is never Judo without jiu-jitsu......How can one decide to walk away (Judo),without actually doing it (Jiu-Jitsu)?They simply can not exist without eachother.
Sure I will and no way would I ever perceive you as being a smart ass.
(For example)If you watch Royce fight in the early ufc`s,you will see clearly that he (a) Used maximum efficiency while useing minimal effort and that he (b) fought hardness with suppleness......This is core judo and what the whole priciple of judo is.These same principles also carry over into other aspects of his life and if you have ever met royce in person,he is a kind person who would avoid a real fight and try to diffuse one if oe broke out.Plus,he loves to share jiu-jitsu (mutual benefit and welfare), another trait carried over from judo to vale-tudo and jiu-jitsu....
Mark says that Kano would not percieve MMA fighting as Judo but I disagree.It would have only taken him to see what MMA does for a person to see that the building of charcture is still core in the training and a result of the training.
In my quote of Sylvio,read what he says "Judo is the science,Jiu-Jitsu is the technique applied", This shows you that by doing Judo you follow the principle and applying it becomes the jiu-jitsu.So using a bar fight as an example,My decision to walk away is Judo,my walking away is jiu-jitsu....This is why I say Judo is vale-tudo when practiced that way because Judo applies to everything.The same principles apply to all aspects of life and sport.So applied and following Judo`s priciples the judoka becomes what they call a BJJ artist,because it is the principle applied to specific rule that makes them what they are.
I hope this makes some sence to someone.I don't think you can say it is judo.
You can say this is where it progressed from; but there is no way Jigoro Kano would look at it and say "this is judo".
Another note. Using post WW2 sources to say what judo is, will not be very helpful. The change was on so those materials will not be of much use.
I do have older ones such as Modern Judo that do indeed show every goshinjutsu trick on the GJJ tapes, and a great many more (such as cane and yawara stick) that are not.
Still, after watching the matches today, one can't really look at Sport Judo and say "that is Kano's Judo" either......
I appreciate all the imput more than I can communicate.
Q,
You said, "So if the question is,how can Judo be the same as Vale-tudo,the answer lies in how it is practiced and fought." Can you flesh that out some?
I am not trying to be a smart ass, I would just be grateful for a description of how core Judo principles show in Bra Vale Tudo to the point that one could say that Vale Tudo is Judo.
Thanks much!
Kirik
Koga,It is my assertion that the judo "the rest of us are doing",is not judo at all.
G&P, it is exactly these definitions that limits the mind and stop people from using the true principles of Judo.In your definition of Judo there is nothing of what judo was meant to be.It wasnt meant to be "just" a fighting art and it certainly wasnt created to be an olympic sport.If so,why call it judo? It would be jiu-jitsu(ju-jitsu) under your definition.Judo is a way,not an art.The art comes from the way, so perhaps your definition is like a self imposed blindfold.