I dont know too much about Judo history, so I'm suprised to hear that Kano "had fights to the death to prove judo." Doesn't this type of fighting perhaps contradict the Judo principle of mutual benefit. Surely the dead figher cant derive any benefit from this.
you guys have too esoteric of a definition of judo.
Judo = jacket wrestling with the effort directed a throwing an opponet squarely on his back. If that is not accomplished to hold him on his back for a period of 25 seconds. Victory my be awarded for submission holds against the elbow or chokeholds.
Japanease Jujitsu traditional japanese art for of self defense which demonstrates the use of grappling holds against various threats. No use of scrimmages or competitions are allowed.
Brazilian Jujitsu, a form of wrestling whereby victory is awarded by forcing the opponent to conceed the match by means of punishing or pain inducing holds. Much of Brazilian Jujitsu is accomplished on the ground, using various leg scissoring moves.
That is my view of the three arts.
But I see it Mark,not in here,because in here ignorance is the rule but on the mats in practice where I watch people with bad lives improve theirs and their outlook on life through the training.
And kano must not have been too against them,he had fights to the death to prove judo!! I just think he did not see the worth because it is often hidden by what one reads or hears and not by what one actually sees.We hear this challenge and that challenge but not of people triumphant over personal challenge.This is what I see in MMA and what I would have shown Master Kano if he where alive today...
I have friends who have been in trouble with the law,drug problems,drinking problems,attitude problems.MMA is a curing agent for those.If you could only see what it has done for my brother for example.... As Musashi said "The way is in the training itself"....Perhaps you do not agree,but we are both entitled to our oppinions,yours being no less valuable than mine and always respected.
Actually in 1965 a guy called Gleeson blew apart the odd idea of "kuzushi" as we thought it existed in a book called "Judo for the West".
Sadly he was burned at the stake for the heritic that he was....
...but the book is still easy to find and I suggest people do so.
Also, we have this guy around here called Scott who did a three volumn tape set on the subject that is pretty darn good too.....
"I'm talking philosophy not principle. Maxium efficiency minimal effort is a principle. That's pretty much a Physic Maxim. Pulleys, levers and other simple machines and even complex machine operate on that principle. It hard to divorce that from Judo. However mutual benefit for others can be divorced from Judo and Judo will still be Judo."
I beleive accually that all discussions on principle are what is to be seaperated from the wrestling itself. Including the physics.
Let us quote a shot from Clausewitz. "knowledge must become a capacity." Let us say that we look at a schematic (of the physics) of a hip toss. Does the body move in a medium of intellectual geometry? Is your reactions governed by this schematic? Is it not governed instead by aspects of the intellect which chose not to communicate with slide rules?
The physical principles of judo are expressed in a medium fundementally divorced from kinesthetic intelligence. Kinesthetic intellegence is the intellecual capacity of a person to move and react in the enviorment of sports.
Let us look at a quote. "Where the mind goes the body follows." What is the contrapositive of this. "where the body went, the mind was already there."
The mind of the athleate does not function in the dimension of math, geometry, physics. This is an aspect of what is called judo that cannot truey exist as the verb.
I started this thread on the wrestling forum, but my wrestling friends are not so intellectual as the judo guys. Here is the thread which carries on my point.
"I have noticed that wrestlers, like boxers, prefer to keep their theories as to "why things work" to a minimum. I have always liked that. Wrestlers seem to prefer transparant explainations, like the wrestling 7 skills approach, to complex theories like judo's balance theory.
I noticed that wrestling seems to avoid the technique-style of instruction as well. Note that wrestling prefers no catalouge of moves -- also a tendancy of judo -- and uses either the 7 skills or an in-house system of chain wrestling.
This has me thinking that wrestlings low-key approach to "why things work" may be their greatest strength. Only a truely pedantic person would insist that practice conform to theory. Wrestling is unique in it's lack of dogmatics. Wrestling's focus is less "inward" than other styles. What do you guys think? Wrestling -- the grappling world's only true science?
I wished I had Kotani's book on Kata.
Anyhow, alot of good points have been raised here. I'm kinda torn between some.
Personally Judo to me is the principles and technique Jigoro Kano developed and taught separate from its philosophy.
I know Judo has a philosophical aspect to it, but in IMHO opinion any thing of that sort has to be separated from what Judo is in terms of definition. You can't define something someone does as a philosophy. The philosophical beliefs and ideas that are attached to Judo, in reality can be taken totally away from Judo, that is never taught or learn, and we'll still have Judo left. Philosophy doesn't manifest itself when one does Judo. You don't see philosophy when one does a Kesa Gatame or Seoi Nage. I'm talking philosophy not principle. Maxium efficiency minimal effort is a principle. That's pretty much a Physic Maxim. Pulleys, levers and other simple machines and even complex machine operate on that principle. It hard to divorce that from Judo. However mutual benefit for others can be divorced from Judo and Judo will still be Judo.
A person can totally disregard that maxim and still do Judo. Mutal benefit is like "do unto others.." I'm sure there are quite a few people who practice Judo who don't in any shape or form ultilize that thinking in their Judo. But one can't say their not doing Judo. Such things as mutual benefit and other Kodokan philosophical precepts are unseen qualities which in reality no one can judge. Ideally we would like to believe that as a person is doing Judo such moral convictions is having its way in them. But it is impossible to tell. Who is to say that any of Kano's closest students actually adhered to any of that Philosophy. Are we sure Kimura had mutual benefit for others? And if he did, was he lacking in terms of following this percept or did he follow it to the tee? Did he just follow it as it relates to Judo or life relardless of the circumstance? Let's say he didn't does that make his Judo bad? You see there is no way to truly answer those questions because we can properly judge him. He can't truly see if he followed that precept or not. That's an unseen quality. Only God can judge him.
Judo isn't religion, philosophy, idealism or the like. You can't truly say that a person of bad moral character isn't doing Judo if his technique is good yet his character is bad. If he is following the principles (off-balance, position, throw; or maxium effeciency minimal effort, and the like) and techniques of Judo as Kano prescribed then he's doing Judo regardless if his character is good or bad.
I tend to agree with G&P in the sense that what Judo actually is in reality sense is Jacket wrestling. Because that in reality is what one is doing with their hands, body, feet.
MG; E-mail me.
I think I might be able to get you a one, or tell you who to ask.
There were three of them at the junior nationals.....
in michigan judo is really BJJ, and BJJ is really judo!
isnt that weird?
"It is Kano's philosophical and educational basis for judo, as much as any contributions of techniques from the early Kodokan days, which have enabled judo to adopt, evolve and thrive into the sport and martial art we find today"
It does so only in the context of jacket wrestling. It is adapting to the verb -- the action of shia (sp?) and randori. Shia and randori drive the impetus of the "judo" experience. This is the jacket wrestling.
Kano's philosophical and educational basis of judo comprises the enviorment in which this body of jacket wrestlers train. The Russians you will note, establish a firewall between their jacket wrestling SAMBO and the training enviroment which they call ROSS.
SAMBO changes, while ROSS is more constant. Both exist in a reciprocal exchange, but they are seaperate. ROSS should be able to observe and correct its errors due to the fact it is divorced from SAMBO. Judo, if it is to refer to the training enviroment of this mode of jacket wrestling, is too intermingled with the experience of shia & randori's limitations to adjust to the Shia without losing sight of perhaps self defense or other expressions orgionally intented of judo.
Judo has the Catch-22 problem Sonnon has discussed. SAMBO is not self defense, nor is it self imporvment, it is a composite style of jacket wrestling. ROSS handles the educational paradigms and applications of SAMBO outside of the SAMBO box.
No koga,you misunderstand my point.Sport Judo or NHB,it does not matter,niether are judo,IMO.Although one could use judo in both,and I do feel,MMA allows more freedom for the principles of Judo.Sport Judo has come so far against the principles that it is not even close to the meaning of Judo anymore.Judo matches are not gentle and they do not allow for maximum efficiency.The rules stop that.
That is my point.
Both however help build characture.
Olympic Judo is NOT judo, it is sport Judo
Is fencing Sword fighting/Duelling? No not at all, if it were there would be a lot more dead people in the olympics. It does however use some of the techniques of Sword fighting but none of the honour or principles of Duelling.
Olympic Judo uses SOME of the techniques of Judo, little or none of the princples and probably even less of the teachings.
I love Sport Judo as a spectactle and as a thing for me to practice and a medium to test myself but I do not tell myself that I am practicing what Jigor Kano invented
DROC
Since I am a fencer not a judo guy, I do agree of course with the idea that fencing is a form of swordfighting but not the whole.
But you can easily see something in the language. I used two words fencing and fighting, which are both verbs. When I say they are not the same, I am stating they are not the same activity -- the same verb.
Fencing, a verb (or really a gerund) build off the verb to fence.
Fighting a gerund build off the verb to fight.
They are clearly as seaperate as judo is to fighting.
I would ask what is the verb form of judo? -- it is to wrestle albeit with a jacket on.
Judo is jacket wrestling. A gerund (with adjectival modifier) built off the verb to wrestle. It is only that.
Judo is a verb pretending to be a dogma.
I honestly believe that my tapes, seminars and lectures have met with the level of success they have, NOT because I am doing anything outstanding, or that I am some great judoka...
...I simply learned how to show the concepts in a way that people can understand and apply them.
We DO have a tape series (actually the first DVD series too) planned for production after the first of the year.
I am also almost finished with the book.
Bravo Coach Tripp!!!
DVD?!?! Coach, you'll have a DVD series?!? I'M SO THERE! :)
Happy,
Paul
We are VERY excited about the new mac's and their ability to make professional quality DVD's.
Once we get our location problems settled we will begin on that project.
OK here is the run down. BJJ was based on Jui Jitsu. Judo is an easier going version of JJ more for sport, but there is a Judo style that the army trains in. Helio who is by half the BJJ guys credited for inventing BJJ is a 5 or 6th dan in Judo and most of the Gracies know some Judo. All the techs you learn in BJJ were there years and years before in JJ and Judo. Judo is way better then BJJ because the stand up part comes with the ground. For those of you who say that Judo is mainly stand up you are wrong and prob. American. In American schools they teach Judo just plain wrong. If you go to a Japanese Judo school you will see that more then half the class time you do ground work. Now for the "guard" what most ppl think was made up by the Gracies was actually a basic JJ and Judo position. All the sweeps, armbar, triangles and so on from the guard are Judo and JJ so BJJ is just cheep rip-off. BJJ is even weaker then Judo because a BJJ guy could not take down a fart in the wind. Carlsson who is the official founder of BJJ learned all he knew from a JJ champion!
Helio has no official judo belt from Kodokan. His 6th dan is self-proclaimed. If he had been 6th dan in judo, he would have already been a famous figure in judo community.
The Kodokan is very political and most of the higher dan belts out of Japan were given out by Japanese fighters against the will of the Kodokan. That is why some Japanese are refused 8 9 10 dans and so on. Kimura got in trouble from the Kodokan for giving out dan rankings whiel abrod.