Judo forum is p*ssing me off:help!

Am I being unreasonable here? What do you guys think of this? I think their training method listed below is completely retarded but no one has agreed with me yet:

From: FightStudent

Date: 11/30/04 03:03 PM
Member Since: 05/28/2004
395 Total Posts Ignore User

When you guys are doing ne-waza at your club, do you stop when someone gets the pin (I mean does anyone actually time it?) or do you stop when someone gets the tap?
At this place where I do Judo, the ne-waza is really a hodge podge of some high school wrestling and some gi chokes thrown in, so I really don't know how most good clubs go about their ne-waza. If anyone could enlighten me and answer the question that I asked above, I'd appreciate it.


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From: GROBAR

Date: 11/30/04 03:29 PM
Member Since: 09/24/2003
47 Total Posts Ignore User

well, at san jose state usually if you're going with a sempai (someone 'above' you) then you're probably at their mercy until you escape. tapping wont do you much good here. they do this to discourage getting used to tapping and doing it in a tournament and to practice your escapes. hell, sometimes when they choke you and you tap that dont mean too much. you have to fight even when being choked. in general, nobody times the pins, only when you feel its been long enough and the guy isnt getting out, then you're just wasting your time. then you can start over. or if you're the guy on top you can move around and switch pins to practice your control. hope that helps
_GROBAR


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From: JoshuaResnick

Date: 11/30/04 05:49 PM
Member Since: 06/12/2002
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the kohai (somebody below you) has it right. here we go by "dont get caught" first and then when you do get caught, youd damn well better fight like hell to get out.
personally, if i get a choke on somebody he is going out, or damn close if i dont have the heart. i am not good at chokes and if somebody was stupid enough to let me get the choke in then it is his own damn fault.

pins.. well, ill hold somebody in a pin until i, bored of it. when i get bored ill start to pinch, bite, whatever until the person finally fights out. sometimes people just need a little jump-start to their survival instinct.


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From: pm1964

Date: 11/30/04 07:10 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
9976 Total Posts Ignore User

At our club, Fresno Judo, I'll pin until it's obvious that the other person cannot get out, then switch to another pin, or go for submission. It's rare tht we do not let somebody out of a pin if they tap (they shold expect to be verbally abused if they tap during a pin), but we always let somebody out of a choke or arm bar if they tap. We might switch to something else, not just let them up, but if they tap, we'll always loosen up.


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From: NYC Judoka60kg

Date: 11/30/04 11:53 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
960 Total Posts Ignore User

When I do ne-waza, I go for whatever is there. Usually if I get the pin and I know I can hold it for as long as I want to, then I go for a submission. When I am training my guys, sometimes I usually hold the pin and make them work to get out. When I do BJJ, I HAVE to go for submission. So usually my game plan is usually to go for a sub, but if I have the pin, then I decided what to from there.
And when I am in tournament, I hold the pin. Only go for a submission if the guy is escaping.

Ricky


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From: Nakamura's

Date: 12/01/04 11:26 AM
Member Since: 10/29/2002
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Not that I have the ultimate truth but the "good" or "ideal" thing to do is to go for the pin to control your partner and then go for 2 subs combined together (in case one fails).
So your partner will practice his pin escapes, and his submissions escapes. At the same time, you will practice your control and subs/subs combos.

Ex : Get the side mount, obtain the mount, start to choke the guy, to be able to breath he pushes your arm giving you his own arm, go fo juji-gatame in a swift motion. A classic...that still works.

Position first, submission then...unless you are a catch wrestler, but thats another story.

My 2 cents, but if you disagree, you dont know sh!t...lol :o)


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From: FatBuddha

Date: 12/01/04 03:23 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
2044 Total Posts Ignore User

Edit

doesn't seem like a real healthy or intelligent way to train newaza (not letting a choke go even when someone taps)


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From: molsonman

Date: 12/01/04 04:11 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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I prefer to go for submissions. I will hold someone in a pin and control them while they attempt to escape. After a while I will let the pin go and try for a submission.


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From: JoshuaResnick

Date: 12/01/04 05:10 PM
Member Since: 06/12/2002
5690 Total Posts Ignore User

FB, its a good thing you arent here then. its called learning the hard way and its a huge part of why sjs is where it is and why we can take players from being white belts to good players in a few years time.


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From: FightStudent

Date: 12/01/04 06:12 PM
Member Since: 05/28/2004
406 Total Posts Ignore User

I would be inclined to agree with Josh that it could be a good strategy because when I have coached wrestling I have used a similar approach and have been able to bring the best out in my guys fast, although I think few things could compare, in terms of difficulty and in terms of a gut check, with being slowly choked out.


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From: JoshuaResnick

Date: 12/02/04 04:41 AM
Member Since: 06/12/2002
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when people have a true, verifiable fear of visiting disney-land once the choke is on then you can be damn sure that they will fight much harder the moment somebody starts to crawl around their neck.
it isnt as if people get choked out every single day, all day long here. its just one of the things people know could happen if they dont put their all into it.


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From: FatBuddha

Date: 12/02/04 12:02 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
2053 Total Posts Ignore User

Edit

Completely disagree with you Josh. I prefer learning the easy way. No one in bjj trains this way and however you compare their newaza to judo newaza you have to admit that bjjers have good newaza. Being choked out doesn't teach you anything.


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From: FatBuddha

Date: 12/02/04 12:31 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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If you need the motivation of being choked completely unconcious to properly defend a choke then you are not motivated enough to begin with.

Not honoring a tap is grounds for an asskicking. It's now a fight, not training, so all bets are off.

Training is for "developing" youyr skills through trail and error within a set of rules. If you can't abide by the rules then you deserve to be ass-beat with a pipe. A person who does this is trying to "dominate" another and maintain or establish themselves within a pecking-order. Sounds kind of punkish. Is that the goal of your training? If your're not going to honor the "tap" then it should be known to all and done away with.

What we have left is a fight, which by it's nature creates a different focus in the exchange. For example, I like to get a neck clinch and elbow, knee, neckcrank, keylock, clasped-hands choke and straight-ankle lock. If my goal was to "dominate" then this is all I would do. I would never develop my other tools and never "allow" myself to be put in a less than adventageous position, etc because I would be to focused on "winning" or "dominating." I would also be fucused on "hurting" my partner so as the maintain my dominance.

Some of the people I train with are very competitive seem to have a need to always "win" in training. If I were to adopt this mentality then training is no longer fun and I'd rather go hunting or read a book. In the past at BJJ I had a training partner who would occasionally piss me off with this mentality when I was'st in the moodand I would have to crank, crush or smash something. It was satifying and an outlet for my anger and aggresion, but accomplished little else.

pm1964 wrote: "At our club, Fresno Judo, I'll pin until it's obvious that the other person cannot get out, then switch to another pin, or go for submission. It's rare tht we do not let somebody out of a pin if they tap (they shold expect to be verbally abused if they tap during a pin), but we always let somebody out of a choke or arm bar if they tap. We might switch to something else, not just let them up, but if they tap, we'll always loosen up."

This is the best method.

They are idiots, and as armlok said, asking for an ass kicking if not a lawsuit. God help them if they ever seriously hurt someone doing that after the person tapped. Sounds like they have a "tough guy" training environment. Nothing positive comes from a place like that.

lol (in agreement with) Armlok's: "Not honoring a tap is grounds for an asskicking. It's now a fight, not training, so all bets are off." Fucking exactly!

"Nothing positive comes from a place like that" - JKDFighter - another great point.

Here is another person agreeing with them below and my response:

From: FightStudent

Date: 12/02/04 02:54 PM
Member Since: 05/28/2004
410 Total Posts Ignore User

I agree with Josh's method....having to deal with that kind of a consequence will motivate anyone to defend the choke better....but I think that people are misinterpreting what Josh is saying. He is not, at least I do not think, advocating regularly choking someone unconscious, but rather, bringing them close to it and occasionally choking them out because being choked out or even close to it is an unpleasant experience and anyone who is faced with the prospect of it would fight all the more to avoid being choked out and develop better defenses.


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From: FatBuddha

Date: 12/02/04 03:55 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
2059 Total Posts Ignore User

Edit

thats the problem with the reasoning here. Getting out of a choke is not a matter of greater effort or motivation. Fighting harder won't get you out, but fighting smarter will. You should learn how to technically escape using minimal strength since even if you could use strength since you may be tired at that point in the actual competition and have to rely on technique.
If I went against a nationally ranked judoka and we were playing on concrete instead of mats, I might struggle more not to get thrown, but my ass would still end up getting thrown. I might last a few more seconds but I would learn and get absolutely nothing out of the experience. If I were boxing with Mike Tyson knowing that if I got knocked out that my unconsicous body would be violated after the knockout, it still would not help my punching defense.

A blackbelt in brazilian jiujitsu and a blackbelt in judo told me almost exactly the same thing within a few weeks of the other, it was kind of ironic - they said: You learn more and you REMEMBER more from your training if you play, experiment, and relax. Training is not competition. You can't learn when you are fighting you learn when you are playing and experimenting.


If I tapped and someone choked me anyway out I would wake up, walk to my car, grab a tire iron then crack them in the leg. 

Amen RodneyPoldrack, as armlok said "all bets are off"

FB, I just lent my voice over there, not sure if it will help the arguement out or not. Honestly, I think that type of training environment weeds out the non-athletes pretty quickly, which may be fine for them, if all they are is a competition team. But they are not giving that scrawny guy who couldn't play basketball the opportunity to slowly become something different. And I have seen too many of those guys in BJJ competitions who are now ASS KICKERS to advocate that hard style of training all the time.

I have been accidentally choked out before. All it taught me was what I already knew right before I went out - I was caught in a choke, and I needed to do something technically different next time. Fighting harder to get out of it or stay out of it was all water under the bridge at that point. And next time, fighter harder would still not be the answer - fighting smarter, as you pointed out, would be.

I mean, if I go up against a BJJ black belt and he taps me with a choke while I'm going 80% with him - thinking that "next round I'm going to go 100% with him, that way I won't get choked" is the worst idea I've ever heard of. All I'm going to do is piss him off.

All I know is, even Rickson taps in training, or so I've heard. If the relaxed style of training is good for him most of the time (save specific preparation for fights, tournaments, etc.), it's good enough for me.

great points. I too have been accidently choked out. It wasn't like I wasn't trying to escape, I was trying to figure out how to escape and under-estimated how much time I had before I went out. It didn't make me any tougher or "try harder" next time! I like your point about weeding out those who have potential but are not the strongest in the club right now. With that kind of attitude the strong will prey on the weak (not getting any better in the process), people will stop coming back, and it will eventually just destroy the club.

Very little "ju" in that "do".

-Luis

www.straightblastgym.com

www.onedragon.com

I read the thread. I don't get it either, it seems as if the tough-guy thing will never go away.

If that's how they want to train then that's the kind of training partners they will have, others won't stay....

Some of those guys are competing at a high level in Judo. It's about competition and winning, not recreational Judo. Reminds me of another post about the Lion's den from awhile back where guys would get choked to sleep a few times a day.

I'm quite sure they are not doing this to new white belts or people that are not going to compete at a high level.

Not something I would want my training to be like, but I don't fault them for what they do as a team.

One thing you have to keep in mind. Joshua is speaking from the perspective of an elite level athlete. Not that others here aren't at that level.

In my experience around those "types" of athletes is this, they operate in a different realm wherein sinking the choke and making them pay for letting you get the choke that far is an acceptable part of the environment. Similar to knocking someone out in the boxing ring because he left his right hand down to much. I would rather that the guy just tell me, but in some environments showing is telling.

Just something to think about, I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong as everyone involved in the discussion has some competitive success which would suggest their training methods work for them.

" Some of those guys are competing at a high level in Judo. It's about competition and winning, not recreational Judo."

I understand that, but it still seeems stupid to me. Like FB said,"Getting out of a choke is not a matter of greater effort or motivation. Fighting harder won't get you out, but fighting smarter will."

This is the prob with a lot of people who are TOO COMPETITITVE. Hell I'm a fairly striong guy (when every bodypart works), I also know alot of ways to twist a joint. So if all I cared about is the win I could grab something and twist faster than my partner can turn, etc. I'm pretty good at neck cranking, but no one AFAIK has been hurt by my cranks, and many times they have escaped because I apply pressure slowly with control. The-Hell-with-it, I can't let them win I'll just yank and crank.... YEABABYYYyyy IS THIS WHAT "TRAINING" IS ABOUT. How would this work with less experienced, smaller, weaker people whom I train/train with. My fat ass has over a hundred pounds on one of the females that trains with us. She has no hesitation asking me how to do something to improve because I don't choke a person out just cause I can.

I had a well-known instructor thank me after we played around for a few minutes. He was trying something out and wanted me on his back and try a choke. He thaked me because I gave resistance that was conducive to training and learning. This is how I am with EVERYONE, even the spazzes who fracture my f'kin teeth or thumb me in the eye when I'm in the middle of class teaching.

Josh admits he is, "not good at chokes." So does this mean he bulling it and being less efficient instead of using the opportunity to improve and still overwhelm the less experienced player with finesse and multiple attacks.

Just what the martial art world needs, more hazing and orders of dominance. Just one forum on the net though, but so hard at work detroying the wonderful art Jigaro Kano brought us as Judo.

Theres is something said by improving the technical ability of the people around you. Your make your own training more honest. To take advantage of mistakes is honorable and worthy to train. To take advantage of ignorance to 'teach a lesson' is a very dangorous line to sink. It's like teaching a kid how to swim by holding his head down in the water. I suppose if you get a vampiric rush off the hatred of other people, you might enjoy yourself.

Dave

Great points everyone (almost everyone).

LOL at the mental picture I got from Armlok's: "I'll just yank and crank.... YEABABYYYyyy IS THIS WHAT "TRAINING" IS ABOUT."

As Mandalalisten postd "Theres is something said by improving the technical ability of the people around you." - thats how everyone gets better together. There must definitely be something sadistic in your mindset if you are choking people unconcious who tap just because you can. If you didn't get some enjoyment out of something like that why would even consider it (I think most of us never had) let alone actually do it? Again I'll quote Mandalalisten: " I suppose if you get a vampiric rush off the hatred of other people, you might enjoy yourself. "

Same with the "pinning him until I'm bored" thing. That is the biggest waste of training time I can think of. How much fun is sitting there on top of somebody, not going for subs?

NO MUCH FUN!

Submissions rule, that is why jits kicks so much ass. ;)

yeah, thats why I like bjj so much more (although I realize judo's benefit for standup fighting) - I especially don't understand the mentality to turtle up at the first sign of trouble or try to choke me from inside my guard.

Whoa, haven't seen that thread, Buddha..

I agree with Paul. As a coach who runs my own training group, I am a lot more relaxed with our training atomosphere. If I were training elite athletes, there may be more of a consequence for losing, in certain drills anyway.