Judo newaza rules explained....

Alot of people have been asking "how much time is allowed for newaza".

The answer is: hypothetical, the entire 5 minute match could be all on the ground. Now, that would never happen but there is no rule which states a "time limit" on the ground.

The rule for newaza is about PROGRESSION, not time limit. The competitor must be continually making progress, either towards a pin or a submission, for newaza to continue.

Example, if I'm in my opponents guard, I break his guard, pass to half-guard, then work to pass half-guard and it looks as if its going to happen, then pass to side control and pin, then after say 7 seconds, my opponent is able to break my pin by getting half-guard back, rinse and repeat, over and over again this could potentially go on until the end of the match.

As a general rule of thumb - not an official rule - a ref usually allows between 5-7 seconds to see this progression. In other words, 5-7 seconds to break full guard, another 5-7 seconds to pass half guard, etc.

If I'm in full mount and working an armbar, same thing, 5-7 seconds to PROGRESS until I have the armbar.

There ya go.

ttt

only you cant close your guard so you dont have to break it.

So what your saying is that if Marcelo garcia could get it to the ground (since he is always attacking and making progress)they will never stand it up.


Somehow, I doubt this,Most judo refs have no concept of making progress on the ground,even if marcelo was down there working.

Baroquen Record - only you cant close your guard so you dont have to break it.



That is 100%, without doubt, incorrect.

Newaza freak - So what your saying is that if Marcelo garcia could get it to the ground (since he is always attacking and making progress)they will never stand it up.


Somehow, I doubt this,Most judo refs have no concept of making progress on the ground,even if marcelo was down there working.



Well, this is why I said hypothetically. I agree that it is highly improbable that a ref would allow an entire match to stay on the ground. But my point is that there is nothing in the rules which states that it cannot be.

Make sense?

I know this isn't the right thread to go off on, but:

I don't get why everyone keeps complaining about the ground work in Judo. That's why it's Judo. If they spent the entire match on the ground working for a submission, it would be BJJ. So, in order to keep Judo focused on the throws, the rules and the ref's quick stand-up are necessary.

If what you want to watch is two guys working on the ground for a submission, you can do that. It's called BJJ.

And, yes, some BB Judokas can be worked over on the ground by a less experienced BJJ guy. But most BJJ guys would be tossed around like a rag doll by a good Judoka. For example, Helio vs. Kimura.

the 'progression' criteria is highly subjective, and the refs always favour the standup, which encourages the use of the turtle stall, which is lame lame lame. they should give penalties to the turtle staller the same way they give gripping violation penalties, both men should have to work to progress and then get stood up when there is a combined offensive/defensive stalemate.

The reason a judoka will turtle is because a pin can win the match. It would be crazy for them to flop to their backs when it could cause them to lose. Just let judo be judo. If you want to see more ground work watch bjj.

Rhymenoceros - What I don't understand is this:

Why the fuck don't they try to escape when pinned? I understand that judoka are pretty damn good at pinning, but still, the guy underneath always gives up and just waits out the 25 seconds. I saw a Russian guy push up on the back of his opponent's gi from side control for about 5 seconds (which is the worst way to create space, IMO), then just cover his face with his hands for the remaining 20 seconds or so. Not a shrimp, not a hip bump, not a cross face, not an underhook, nothing. Is it considered dishonorable to try to escape, or do some of these guys just never ever practice escaping pins?


I think you'd have to have a Judo guy pinning you to understand. In BJJ, the top guy is often still moving or going for a submission and it creates openings. In Judo, they are focused on the pin and when done right, it can be very hard to escape.

That being said, it does often look like they aren't trying that hard. But I've been pinned so hard that I couldn't breath, so it's hard to say.

the guard can prevent a pin just as well as a turtle. both can be turned into a pin. the point is that i don't believe the turtle is in the spirit of judo, especially when used to stall. you could say the same for the guard when used to stall. it is the responsibility of both players to not stall.

genericamerican is correct. pinning in judo would be considered stalling in bjj (lol). there's no intent to submit you although it can happen incidently.

demandango - i don't believe the turtle is in the spirit of judo, especially when used to stall. you could say the same for the guard when used to stall. it is the responsibility of both players to not stall.


You've got my vote. The sport's rules are flawed for not penalizing this extremely common way of avoiding combat. Turtling isn't in the spirit of judo and so the sport's rules should disallow it. Given the # of people who bitch about turtling, it's not hard to imagine that this would also improve judo's viewership numbers. Being an Olympic sport is a privilege, not a right.

I say disallow turtling or allow soccer kicks.

I agree that turtling should be considered stalling.

  • I agree lots of guys who get pinned look like they're hardly trying to get out but as mentioned, since pinning is the objective once osaekomi is called and the pinner is not looking for a sub, it is difficult to get out but i agree they could try at least

    - Turtling isnt necessarily "stalling" when both guys want to get back up to standing

That's a good point, but usually the guy who is not turtling won't even attempt to engage in ground work, he'll just walk away.

But if I sink my hooks and start working for a choke and my opponent is stalling for a stand-up.... that's stalling, in my opinion.

if you sink your hooks in and turn your opp over, the ref should give you more time to work. when i was competing in the 90s, my coachs used to say that we must have progress so turning over should buy you some time but now the refs just call it even when you're in the middle of something - that is without a doubt lame.

and regarding your first point, yeah, if the guy on top walks off to go back to standing because thats what both he and the turtling guy both want to do, how is that "stalling." "Stalling" is when one guy is trying to do something and the other just strikes a defensive posture. Besides turtling can be viewed as an invitation for the top guy to take the back and try something but guess what, 9/10, they wont so you cant call "stalling" on a turtler when the top guy isnt even attacking.

Most people here just need to actually know a bit about the sport and not just view it thru the perspective of another sport because judo aint bjj, judo aint mma. judo is judo. How annoying would it be for the bjj forum to have guys come on every mundial and say, "hey! that guy didnt attempt to go for a td, hey, there wasnt any submission in 30 seconds, boring!"

Wasa-B - Turtling isnt necessarily "stalling" when both guys want to get back up to standing


Turtling seems to cost our art a lot of potential fans who check out judo hoping for something hot but end up seeing a whole lot of turtling. And it's been mentioned that it's frequently seen as simply avoiding combat which is not in keeping with the spirit of judo as turtling is particularly lacking in engagement and boldness.

It's not clear to me that the minor benefit of allowing both parties to get a stand-up really offsets the full costs. I wonder if there are alternative (though obviously non-traditional) ways to separately but mutually signal for a reset while still prohibiting turtling.

I would love to the judo rules modified to treat a back mount as a pin.

I'd also like to see a pin's score reduced from ippon (full point) to waza-ari (half-point), so the attacker would still have an incentive to go for submission.

 So if you lock in an armbar and don't finish in 7 seconds, the ref stands them up?