Huge difference between a hobbyist Judo BB and an Olympian
Well...part of the problem would be the directors of the tournament. They simply let him slip by.
If they were aware of his background they could easily "forced" him to compete in a higher belt level. I'm sure they must have known.
Like someone already stated there is more to consider than ones rank in another martial art. You have to look at their overall competition experience as well as the "level" it (their competition) was on. Their training experience means something to.
I knew a Brazilian Judoka who had been doing Judo for most of his life. He compete in and won several Judo tournaments in Brazil. He told me he went to a local Bjj school in his hometown in Brazil. He said that once the instructor found out he was a Judo black belt with a long competition record he was immediately given a purple belt.
He was suppose to fight in a tournament for this Bjj school as a purple belt BUT as soon as the tournament directors found out who he was they MADE him fight in the Black belt level.
He went on to say that as soon as the other competitors found out he was a Judo black belt that all were afraid to engage him. Despite this he told me he ended up taking second place.
My point is the tournament directors are suppose to know who is fighting in their tournaments. There is no way that some well known competitor in Judo or wrestling should be able to get past the "screening" process and end up in a division that is well under their "competitive" level.
I was at the competition and i am a BJJ Purple and a Judo Black Belt.
I train Judo at the same club as Winston although we train BJJ at
different clubs.He is Barra and i am with Carlson Gracie.
He has just started BJJ and his teacher entered him in blue belts.
I saw all his fights and although he was definately better standing and
overall a much better athlete than all his opponents,he didn't have it all
his own way on the floor.Yes he won,because he is a Professional and
knows how to win tournaments but i would not say he was in the
wrong division.He got taken down a couple of times and had to fight
very hard to win his matches and didn't win them all by sub or
anything.
I don't think he was sandbagging-i know this bloke and he'd fight a
angry posse of gorilla's if his team told him to.I reckon he will get a
purple belt in record time.But for his first tournament as a begginer at
BJJ i think his teacher had it right to put him in the Blue Belts.
Out of interest,my team has a couple of Judo Black belts who have just
started training with us and although not olympians they are in the
national top 3.We entered them in the white belt belt division because
that is their level on the ground.
One of them won his division,but the other one got beaten in the final
by another one of our team who is a pure bjj white belt,never done
anything else and has been a white belt for 2 years.Go figure.
I think it is great if more Judo guys train BJJ,just as it is great when BJJ
guys train Judo.
I don't think Judo Blackbelts should have to fight in the Purple belt
division at tourneys as that would make a mockery of the skill needed
to earn a purple belt.
Part of being a BJJ Blue Belt (at my club anyway) is knowing you have to
be tough enough to at least not get tapped by any nasty wrestlers or
judo guys who turn up to train at the club,and if that means as a Blue
Belt you might meet an International Judo Player at a competition
then so be it.Let it roll.
One of our white belts who trains everyday and is about 65 kilo's
recently had to spar with a Judo Black Belt who turned up uninvited at
our club.This guy was built like Dolph Lundgren at 95kilo's (i kid you
not) and was decent on the ground.Our White belt was able to do a 6
minute round with him without getting tapped (and believe me the big
bloke was trying).When i saw our guy not get tapped i realised he was
going to get a Blue Belt from our instructor.He was ready.
Simon Hayes Carlson Gracie London
P.S.
To m.g.-
Your post makes me worry firstly that BJJ instructors would EVER just
give out a Purple to a guy who was a Judo Black Belt (international
player or not..) and secondly HORRIFIED that anyone be made to fight
in the Black Belt division.
Once you fight in the Black Belt division you have basically graded
yourself,or awarded yourself a black belt because you can never fight
at a lower grade again.
So,guys could go and spend 3 years getting a Judo Black Belt,enter
themselves in a BJJ tournament in the Black Belt division and call
themselves a BJJ Black Belt.
P.S.
I was a BJJ Purple Belt when i started Judo and i had to start at the
beginning like everyone else.No one gave me a Judo Black Belt, i had to
earn it by turning up to class,learning Judo and fighting for my belts at
National Gradings.
If someone had said "Oh your a BJJ Purple Belt so you are at Black Belt
level in Judo-here's a Black Belt "i would not have taken it.
Well said Simon.
The original post on the Judo board is written with an obvious agenda.
Gives the impression that he had no BJJ training at all.
However, this is a guy who is training BJJ, has been awarded a Blue Belt and therefore rightly competed at that level. He will get his Purple belt when his ground skills get to the right level.
BTW, how was the rest of the tournament, the GB guys I spoke to when I got back had a good time!
The tournament was great.It was excellent to see all the teams together
again and there was a great atmosphere.BJJ in England seems to be going
from strength to strength.
Hope you're well and training hard Cockney Blue.
BTW Well done to Roger!
Here we go again....
I'm a judo bb and a bjj brown, i think that qualifies me to post here.
first of all,
he probably has a bjj coach that has ranked him and told him which division to compete in.
second,
who friggin cares? he's cross-training obviously and people shouldn't whine that "there's a judo bb olympian, blah , blah, blah, etc.."
I'm glad to hear some of you brag yet again how you "routinely handle judo bb's, etc..." but you're the first ones to bi*ch when someone from judo makes someone from bjj look silly. go train at a few places fellas. let me know what part of the country you're in and i'll recommend a few places where you might learn a thing or two.
now, get in your mini-truck, wearing your tap-out t-shirt and head on up to your local hooters and watch the UFC. maybe, just maybe, some dirtbag waitress will be impressed you know soooo much about fighting.
cgjj,
Keep in mind this was in Brazil where the standards as well as the track record (following the career of a given competitor) for Judo is pretty high.
Also keep in mind this guy wasn't "just" a Judo black belt. He had a well-accomplished competition record (again something that can be followed and verified through the Judo governing body in Brazil).
Another thing I told this story before and I was told by someone on this forum, who is Brazilian and familiar with how tournaments are run there, that Judo black belts HAVE TO compete as Purple belts in Bjj tournaments there anyway.
I think they "made" this guy compete as a Black Belt because of his extensive competition record as a Judoka.
Think about this I seriously doubt Brazilian Olympic Judo player Flavio Canto would EVER compete in a Bjj tournament in any division except black belt level. If he did I guarantee there would be an up roar.
Incidently, years ago when Yuki Nakai was I think just a brown belt, newly promoted brown belt I believe, he was FORCED to compete as a black belt in a tournament by Carlos Gracie Jr himself. I guess Carlinhos felt Yuki Nakai had "enough" competition experience to "compete" with the "big boys".
Basically i have rolled with A LOT of Judo Black Belts and whether they
are any good on the ground or not seems to have nothing to do with
their competition level or record.
Whether they are good on the ground seems to be directly linked to
whether their school or teacher is
a. Interested in Ne Waza
b. Skilled enough at Ne Waza to teach it to a high standard.
c. Spends enough time actually on the floor sparring and drilling.
So,funny that-If a student drills and rolls he will get good on the floor.
If he doesnt he will not.
A bit like BJJ.
A students standard in Ne Waza has no bearing on his competiton
record although an International Competitor will be hard to beat
because he has the heart of a fighter and the lungs of an athlete even if
his ground game has holes in it.
Some Judo Schools place almost NO emphasis on Ne Waza,and their
students,even international level competitors,have horrible ground
games-They just literally lock down and wait knowing they will get
stood up immediately in a competition.
Whereas other schools place a big emphasis on Ne Waza and teach it in
the same way as BJJ schools teach.
Lets leave the BJJ/Judo hate thing for the bitter old men that can't do
either anymore so conduct their fighting off the mat and on the
internet instead.
P.S. My Judo Instructor Ray Stevens still makes me feel like a white Belt
every time i roll with him.
Olympic level athlete is very different from a blackbelt at the local judo skill. Not even counting his martial arts skill, his conditioning both physical and mental is going to be light years ahead of the average bluebelt.
If its true the guy is an Olympian in Judo, then its just sad and pathetic he'd think it okay to be in the blue belt division.
Don't care if his instructor 'recommended' he go in that division. Most BJJ instructors, given the choice, will always put someone in a division they will win. Its one of the problems with BJJ - "Sure you're a gold medalist at freestyle wrestling, but you've only had six months of BJJ. Definitley white belt divison for you!"
Simon, did anyone actually at the competition have a problem with it?
No-one at Gracie Barra London even mentioned it to me so my guess is that people are getting there knickers in a twist over a non issue.
"Surely there is no problem with someone with worthless ground skills like all judo people have entering the blue belt division at a tournament."
Well the rules are such that you can win via takedowns/throws so its possible he actually does have blue belt level or lower ground skills.
Carlos Newton trained at my judo club and entered a couple of tournaments (after he had already fought in the UFC and been a multiple Cdn JJ champ) as an orange belt. Why? Because he was an orange belt at the time. Carlos wanted to work his throws and did not really try to engage any opponents on the ground where he would have had considerably more experience on the ground.
It is fair enough for Gordon to enter the blue belt division for all the reasons cbjj cited - I certainly don't think that he proves anything by smashing blue belts with throws though and more than it would have helped Carlos' game to have armlocked green and orange belts in judo. - Koga!
I thought CBJJ rules state a Judo BB must compete at least at Purple or above due to the danger they pose from throws
I seem to recall either Felipe or Roger saying that a Judo BB will almost immediately get a Purple in BJJ. Didn't Dave (Von Gasse) get his purple only a few months into BJJ?
Odd...
^^^^^
So a very quick route to Purple in BJJ is to get a Judo Black Belt?
Maybe BJJ Purples should get an immediate Judo Black Belt?
Ridiculous IMHO
I've rolled with Winston several times and I think he was in the correct division.
one thing to remember is that to get a judo bb, u need to take teh grading test, so in theory, u can just not take it for years, yet still train. in that case, u will be pretty good
I'm a Carlson purple and as a Judo BB at the Budokwai in the UK I've had the pleasure of rolling with all kinds of Black belts from people who barely ever train on the ground who are completely lost up to Olympians such as Ray Stevens and Kenzo Nakamura who've utterly owned me.
The fact is that any attempt to classify someones Judo rank from their rank in BJJ or vice versa is nonsensical, rank in either discipline can be gained with very little attention paid to the other so it is down to the individual and the amount of time they have spent learning groundwork/ne-waza or stand-up/tachi-waza rather than the colour of their belt.