I train judo and they practice mostly uchikomi with a partner and wall drills without a partner. It is traditional japanese style. Sometimes practicing sweeps in the air drives me nuts. I thought about training other places but the black belts I have seen dont have as a good a form. I thought maybe they were holding back but after reading this "
For example there are alot of throws in Judo. But a certain types of throws are based on one "movement" called the backstep. If one masters the basic step, which is a simple movement, they will master a number of throws even throws which seem hard. Master the backstep and throws like Seoi Nage, Morote Seoi Nage, Harai Goshi, Ogoshi, Uchimata, Tai-otoshi, Koshi guruma, and a host of others will be easy (or easier) to learn. And even if the "basic" movement of the backstep varies in all of these throws you can still back those throwdown to to that movement.
I thought maybe I should they are right in teaching the basic steps first. Still I
I am a orange belt know like four throws dont know how to grip. Is uchikomi like some wax on wax off thing that will suddenly teach(backstep) how to execute other throws. I dont know If I should stay at my dojo and master this stuff or if I should go elsewhere. I want to learn more and faster is this wrong?
Dakuan,
I wrote that quote you posted. The backstep movement is important once you master it not only will you have a better chance to master a number of throws but you "precision", "entries", and "applications" will be better.
Another thing to keep in mind is not to think of the "movement" in a "static" sense but rather in a "dynamic" sense. What I mean by this is when you master the movement you should be able to "adjust" and "adapt" the movement to the situation and circumstance in which you use it. So when you do the movement think of angles, entries, wariations etc as dictated by the circumstance.
The same can be said about grips. Initially you learn to do the backstep from the most basic grips. BUT since grips is a dynamic thing as well you learn to do the backstep from a VARIETY of different grips.
Incidently grips in Judo (japanese) is called kumikata
when I was talking about uchikomi I was talking about the repetitive practice of going into the first part of the throw with out throwing. We do a lot of that. I find it frustrating because at times it seems divorced from actually throwing or sparring. I am wondering where it fits in? I guess your right though you need to master the basic movements and then they will only come after I am able to master it in a non static manner.
You need to learn how to grip fight. Look at any decent judo player in action and you will see that grip fighting is always the first thing that is done as soon as contact is made. Having a dominant grip is what allows you to throw much easier. In addition, having a dominant grip automatically has defense built in. It is very difficult for a person to throw you if they have an inferior grip.
Uchikomi's in the traditional way I have seen it done is useless in my personal opinion. When I trained with Russian judo black belt, Igor Yokimov, he referred to the traditional Japanese way as dancing. I do not find it practical because it does not resemble how a throw is done in reality. I asked one of my judo instructors to do uchikomi's for uchi mata in the traditional manner and he did it very beautifully. Then I told him to enter into uchi mata hard and fast like he was going to throw for real. As soon as he was entering like it was for real, his movement changed.
Igor said that uchikomi's should be done with the grip you will use in action, enter like you are doing it for real, and lift your opponent off the ground. Anything else is just dancing.
Many people do traditional uchikomi's because "that is the way it has always been done". They were told to do it by their instructors and their instructors were told to do it by their instructors. It has become tradition.
I studied judo for 1 year before I stopped because of a knee injury. I progress very well during that 1 year and I can tell you that I did minimal traditional uchikomi's. What little uchikomi's I did, I felt it was useless because all the throws I did in action were variations that had different footwork than the uchikomi's.
Wow, only a year the take downs on your site look pretty sweet. I saw on another post you mentioning reference points how does this relate to dominant grips. Are they the same? So I should figure out a heirarchy of grips and develop a throw from each to develop a game plan? now I am always trying a throw from the basic two handed vs two handed grip.
I picked a couple dominant grips and referred to them as reference points to hunt for. From each reference point, I several throws to could do. I was a beginner with throws, however, if you look at the highlight video clip on my site, you will see that I would throw from several different grips. Some of the people being throw in the clip were judo black belts from other clubs (you can't really tell that they were black belts because we wore white and blue belts in competition). Those black belts were not high level competition champs, just the average club black belts, but I was at least glad I was able to pull some stuff off on them considering I only had 1 year of experience.
Going elsewhere may not be it, you may have to just sit down with a higher rank and start basically going over what you were talking about. I'm a ikkyu now in judo, and me and couple of browns and black belts have been practicing our own thing on the side from what everybody else in the dojo is doing after we experienced similar things. I agree with Bolo, the problem I see in judo at times is that a traditional entry is taught in order to get you to know what/how the throw works, but at times it isn't the correct to do it if you are doing in a real-time situation. We finally started systematically breaking things down, for instance, in order to find out where the real off balance is in the major basic throws and making sure the principles were translatable.
Thanks for the tips I now am starting to get ideas about what to look for at least. The reference point post helps. I also agree that the traditional practice of throws like in the kodokan videos is teach you basic principles. Still drives me crazy when I am practicing osoto gari by myself against a wall for five minutes. I also heard the Marc Verillotte dvds are good for learning gripping.
ttt
Whether you practice on the wall or on a partner, do it exactly how you would do it in action. Everything else is just dancing. Doing a traditional movement that is never done in action does not teach you anything but to waste your time. You will only learn about the practical application of pricinciples if you movement has practical application.
Bolo, and others,
The problem with the so-called "Japanese way" of doing uchikomi is it is actually a westernized or western view of how the japanese supposedly do uchikomi.
When a Japanese person does uchikomi he or she doesn't do it in just "one" way and doesn't have just "one" focus. A japanese person when they do uchi-komi may be focusing on other things which a typical observer (particular a western observer) may not even pick-up on; things like: precision, speed, movement (tai-sabaki), posture, hiki-te (pulling hand, tsuri-te (pushing or lifting hand), power (spring and coil), angle and positioning and other elements.
In general a Japanese Judoka has better form and function then other Judo players BECAUSE when they do things like uchikomi they DON'T do it one dimensionally like many westerners do.
Alot of thing that a Japanese Judoka do in uchikomi go WAAAAAAY over alot of westerns heads because they (the westerns) have NO idea as to what the Japanese Judoka is working on when they do uchikomi.
For example alot of judoka have no idea what the concept of "coil and spring".
Coil and spring is an important body position movement which gives and throw power. This principle is one of the many concepts worked on in uchikomi by Japanese Judokas BUT it is something that you'll rarely here western Judo coaches talk about because they don't know what it is.
People miss so much because they don't really see the whole picture.
m.g. I've only met one Japanese Judoka, but he is exactly as you describe. I train with him daily Mon-Fri, and his uchikomi is fast, powerful, and with seemingly perfect form. Though when I ask him what he pays attention to, each time he mentions something different he's working on, eg. foot placement, or all the other things you've mentioned.
And though he really likes uchi-komi, he also loves us to do nage-komi, which is the completely executing a throw, over and over. 3 days a week we're in my backyard, practicing on a big tarp, and putting an old futon-bed mattress down for nage-komi. Dakuan, you really should find a partner and do this with them in your own time. Using a bed-mattress Its not as good as proper mats, as you're limited to fairly static application of throws ... but its still WAY better than not doing it. But only focus on a few throws, don't spread yourself too thin -- for contest you need to specialize in 1-3 throws, not try to do them all.
m.g.,
I'm curious how this "westernized Japanese way" came about. It seems that most clubs and schools in the US train that way. Even Americans that have went to train in Japan still do it that way. Even guys like Igor who train in Russia know of this "dancing" crap that so many people do.
Bolo, the main problem is that every country that is a major judo powerhouse has their own style of judo. Now of course its the same system, but depending on the country different training habits/variations in techniques are done. This happens mainly as they change things to suit their body types and/or adopt native grappling systems as well to add their own flavor. The problem with judo here in america is that we try to emulate the Japanese style instead of coming up with one of our own, IMO. We try to emulate things that at times won't work because of how we are built, or just plain misinterprate the meaning of some of their movements. For alot of clubs here, if you aren't doing it the japanese way, it just isn't judo. A stupid way of thinking, but still one that some follow.
Bolo,
That's a good question. I think part of it is people just "see" the surface and never get past that. They never even think to ask "why" or "for what purpose". People in such cases are just "copy cats"...it is "the monkey see monkey do" mode of operation. We copy the concept without really understanding fully what it is about. I think language barrier is a big reason for the gap in understand the application of some concepts.
My teacher and first Judo training partners were from Japan and they essentially taught me based on their own experience AND I would have seen uchikomi like many westerners would have until I actually began looking at it beyond the surface I was seeing.
In some of my conversation with my teacher and training partner as well as reading about other Japanese Judokas experience and understanding of uchikomi I found that alot of westerners that I know of see uchikomi as an exercise of "mechanics". That is, they do it mechanically. There is no thought involved in what one is doing.
Like I said one the surface when you see a Japanese Judoka doing uchikomi you "think" he or she is doing the "same" thing over and over "mechanically" BUT they are not. In fact Japanese Judokas are warned NOT to do uchikomis mechanically.
See a Japanese Judoka gives each set of uchikomi a "specific" theme and focus. A Japanese Judoka may be working on just one or two elements of a given technique like: speed of entry, hiki-te (pulling hand), Tsuri-te (lifting or pushing hand), Shisei (posture), Kuzushi (points of off-balance.
Most American Judokas don't even have a "theme" to the uchikomis they do which means they don't have a point or focus. This is the REASON and DIFFERENCE between the American or western Judoka (actually some westerners do uchikomis like the japanese in that they do them with a theme and purpose) and the Japanese Judoka. The japanese Judoka can tell you WHAT exact he or he is working on the American can only reharsh what they have been told.
The Japanese are faaaaar more creative with Uchikomi then most American Judokas I know. AND the Japanese USED uchikomi in more creative ways the most Americans.
They'll use uchikomi to practice and train various subtle aspects of a given technique that most people don't even pickup on.
Like I said in general Japanese Judokas throwing techniques are more technical, precise, and polished then other Judokas.
The other point to remember is the evidence; look at what Japanese Judoka can do on the mat. What they do is kick ass on anyone who steps up, and they prove that year after year after year. They even have players who go to Russia and win the top Sambo events (eg. Kashiwazaki, Yamashita)
Some try to argue that the Japanese potency is not because of their various supposedly 'old-fashioned' training methods, but simply because of the great number of other Judoka they have to train with (something you Americans lack). But this argument is flawed, because for some years now France (who very much play the Russian style) has actually had more practicing Judoka than Japan!
Bolo's specific advice is still good though, I think: practice uchi-komi as close as you can to how you will use it in shiai. Also, definitely prioritize dynamic practice rather than static -- do it on the move, in all directions, and if your training partner & mats are up for it, finish the throw off completely as often as possible (eg. once for every 5 or 10 or 20 entries).
And get in as much nage-komi as possible, as it is the superior method, imho, if you have a throwing surface of sufficient quality to take a lot of falls. ( You'll find that some throws are very difficult to uchi-komi anyway.)
Well..the thing about uchikomi, which is the underlining point I am really trying to make, is it is supposed to be means or method of preparation which "conforms" to the "needs" of the individual and not the other way around.
The point I was trying to make about the Japanese and uchikomi is that it isn't as restrictive and rule-bound as people outside of Japan seem to have made it to be.
I've never heard of people having to do uchikomi in a certain way with certain grips without any change. I never heard of there being any "rule" as to how uchikomi can and should be done.
Bolo seem to have got this idea from somewhere that in Japan uchikomi is restrictive and done in only one way.
Uchikomi is a training method. Nothing more, nothing less. It can be done any way that suits the individual. Not only is there a diverity of methods in regards to how uchikomi is done but, like I mentioned before there are many "themes" and "focuses" given to uchikomi when done.
Don't believe me? Read some of the great Japanese Judo players writings on how they trained their techniques with uchikomi. They have a huge variety of uchikomi variations. They have some of the best ideas for doing uchikomi.