Let me ask my judo brothers about Kenshiro Abe. He was an All Japan champion several times, and one of only a few to ever beat Kimura, who said that he was "like fighting a shadow." So he had strong judo credentials.
Now, apparently he was so impressed with Ueshiba that he studied with him for 10 years and added a 6th dan in aikido to his 8th dan in judo. The story, and I stress it is a STORY, is as follows:
" Eventually, the old man put a finger in Kenshiro’s face, “You are so powerful, break my finger!” Kenshiro was only too happy to oblige. He took the finger, expecting to snap it like a twig, and wham! He found himself on the carriage floor under the full control of the old man. The old man allowed Kenshiro to get back into his seat. “Who are you?” Kenshiro Abbe asked. “I am Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido.” Kenshiro Abbe was astounded at the technique of the old man and requested that he become his student"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenshiro_Abe
What do you guys make of this? Somehow I am suspicious, but it is a fact that Abe promoted both judo and aikido.
Most Judo instructors I have had or met at seminars really never thought much of Aikido because they said it did not translate that well in a sparring environment.
Thanks for responding guys.
ET, I had the exact same thought in that the test is really a parlor trick. That said, Abe would have had 10 years to figure the game out, but held on to his high opinion of aikido and Ueshiba. It's hard to figure, isn't it.
Outkaster, I totally hear you, but you have guys like Abe and Tomiki that leave me wondering.
Easytarget - Interesting Matt Pimp,
All i can say is that finger attempted snapping isn't sparring, Aikido loves these tests - push me over, bend my straight arm, where force is applied steadily and they resist.
Also Ueshiba had previous training iirc in a number of styles.How good he got at sparring and and why he got that good doesn't seem to translate to his students, maybe because of his history.
Not saying that Aikido is necessarily effective, but judging a style a style that does zero sparring by it's efficacy in sparring is a bit unfair.
ding, ding We have a winner.
Claim to be a source of discipline, self-improvement, exercise, etc., and you're good to go.
Claim to have any relationship to self-defense, you damn well better be willing to have it tested in vivo.
If you can't apply it with a reasonable probability of succeess against a resisting opponent, it is no longer a martial art, it is dancing.
None So Blind - ding, ding We have a winner.
Claim to be a source of discipline, self-improvement, exercise, etc., and you're good to go.
Claim to have any relationship to self-defense, you damn well better be willing to have it tested in vivo.
If you can't apply it with a reasonable probability of succeess against a resisting opponent, it is no longer a martial art, it is dancing.
I dont see why the only way to convince you guys that it's a valid self-defense is to do well in sparring against a highly skilled opponent. Isn't the better way to judge whether it is useful in self-defense is how well it has worked in self-defense situations?
I know plenty of people who have defended themselves just fine in altercations using Aikido. If I was training for self-defense, to me that would be a better indication than controlled sparring with rules. Makes sense doesn't it?
To me, whatever martial art you can execute thru years of practice/competition under pressure situations is a good one. Whatever trains the body to react to the situation at hand or instinctive is the one you will use. We have an akido guy who trains judo and does stuff that is very effective but illegal in judo. He has been told a few times in matwork work you can't do that in judo.
As mentioned, Kenshiro Abbe - judo great - studied aikido, after learning judo. He introduced it to England, in fact.
Jigoro Kano, after seeing it, called it 'the true judo', and sent some of his top students to train with Ueshiba: Kenji Tomiki became an 8th dan in both aikido and judo...
He created randori in his style, in fact - and it looks awful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM_u-cCSPoA
One problem is, aikido is a striking art - but the randori outlaws striking...
I gave up aikido when I started BJJ, and realised I was learning the same things - but in a much more efficient way (by sparring).
And therein lies the problem: that the training methodology is inadequate, and that what aikido is very much in dispute.
It's meant to be more than body alignment; creating angles; moving from your centre - but what...?
I was a member of aikiweb forums, a few years back, and there was a guy on there called Dan Harden, who claimed to understand Ueshiba, and be able to do what he did; plenty of high-ranked aikidoka were convinced after training with him...he spoke of teaching BJJ, and MMA, guys, too.
I always said i'd train with him when he came to England...
He lives in the US, so I imagine most of you guys can train with him - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22296
When I do BJJ, I just do the aikido I learned - relax; feel the guy's intent; don't muscle things; flow; posture...
When I get chance, i'll do a bit, again - but it's more than what i've ever been taught, I think, and that I do want to learn.
The Kano connection stated above is what's intrigued me as well as the puported strategies against multiple attackers. But I have no understanding if whether it really works.
As I say: there is a big dispute about what Ueshiba did, and what everybody else is doing - what 'aikido' is...what Dan Harden is doing is meant to be remarkable, so train with him, if you really want to satisfy your curiosity.
I'm also really interested in this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5s8ZSDPPTA
Regards multiple attackers: it's the same kind of thing as karate - you had to end the confrontation immediately: you couldn't grapple with the guy, because his mates would come and stab you (in Japan, which was a weapons culture).
multiple attacker strategies are certainly intriguing. I would love to interview/do a lesson with Seagal - would love to get his or his manager's contact info
There was a great little article a few days ago on this very topic of in vivo tested art vs those with an emphasis on co-operative attackers. Here is a link;
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/435883/No-touch-martial-arts-master-meets-reality/
I did wrestling and Judo before coming across Yoseikan Aikijutsu which I found a lot of fun. It combined Judo, Karate and Aikido. Most Aikido people turn their nose up at it as crude and not very smooth. I preferred resistence over people doing co-operative flying ukes. Eventually I went on to BJJ for 7 years.Gotta mention Minoru Mochizuke. He was a Judoka direct student sent by Kano to study under Ueshiba pre-WW2. Mochizuke is almost unknown in US because he was mostly in Europe (France) spreading his hybrid art. It has splintered into various groups with different emphasis now but there are a few clubs in North America.How effective? I think there are definite applications such as group using technique to safely restrain a combative person. I don't believe the one against a group would work though it's how they train.
TerreM - There was a great little article a few days ago on this very topic of in vivo tested art vs those with an emphasis on co-operative attackers. Here is a link;
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/435883/No-touch-martial-arts-master-meets-reality/
I did wrestling and Judo before coming across Yoseikan Aikijutsu which I found a lot of fun. It combined Judo, Karate and Aikido. Most Aikido people turn their nose up at it as crude and not very smooth. I preferred resistence over people doing co-operative flying ukes. Eventually I went on to BJJ for 7 years.Gotta mention Minoru Mochizuke. He was a Judoka direct student sent by Kano to study under Ueshiba pre-WW2. Mochizuke is almost unknown in US because he was mostly in Europe (France) spreading his hybrid art. It has splintered into various groups with different emphasis now but there are a few clubs in North America.How effective? I think there are definite applications such as group using technique to safely restrain a combative person. I don't believe the one against a group would work though it's how they train.
I was the opposite. Started off in Aikikai Aikido, got to black belt then started doing Judo and BJJ. I value my training in Aikido as it certainly helped me get better at the other two arts a lot faster than most people.
In regards to the multiple attackers and weapons defense stuff, I'm not 100% convinced it would always work in a street situation either. However, I'm almost certain that having learnt it, I'm a lot better off than most people that haven't. I'd recommend giving it a go for you guys who already have a decent martial arts background.
Also great posts by judoblackbelt and GrahamJ, good to see some of you pure Judo guys are open minded about it.
CyborgRoyce,
Don't get me wrong. I still value my (Yoseikan) Aikido training and feel better rounded because of it. I transitioned into BJJ because I enjoyed it as well and because our sensei moved away. I looked at some Aikikai schools and found that I did not enjoy the training as much. It felt overly co-operative. There is a BJJ black belt named Roy Dean who appears to have incorporated Aikido/Aikijutsu techniques into his BJJ. As far as applicability, I work in healthcare (ER) and sometimes we have to restrain combative individuals. The goal is not to inflict pain or injury but to restrain the person safely. I've found that my Aiki background is very helpful whereas some of the security guys without any such training tend to use brute force. Of course the big difference is I am not doing it all by myself. I did however get attacked once (on the job) by a much larger guy and I found that I instinctively went to Judo/wrestling to get him to the ground, then I switched to more Aiki technique to restrain him. As far as a street situation, I don't know. I haven't gotten into a street fight since I was a teen.