His formula reflects why there are so many griping violations now...lol
but Quincy, is as true to the intent as bjj in your oppinion?
I actually feel that sambo is...it is harder to win by throw than judo, but there is more groundwork than judo as well...
so it is a balance between throwing and groudwork
We've both met sambists who could throw down as well (they have done alright in MMA, not as well as the duel-based BJJ, but pretty good), and they are trained in combatives, weapons, etc. as part of the curriculum...
I prefer chokes to leglocks, so I like sport judo more, but the sambo balance is better than sport judo or sport bjjers stance from a 'pure' judo standpoint isn't it?
Sothy, I believe Sambo is a great sport and has some benefits over sport judo and some weaknesses.
I can't really comment on the martial Sambo because I have never learned it or read much about it,combatative stuff makes me sleep.
Just the sport stuff and some dates of it's influence on sport judo..
Do you have a history on why chokes are illegal in sambo competitions? Would be interesting to see why...Did a bunch of judoka show up? lol...
I am unsure of it's true intent,what are your oppinions?
I heard that when the Russians came onto the the Olympic Judo scene they were using a grip that was screwing everyone up (I heard this from a high level judoka, I don't know if it's true). He said that the Russians would grab the front of their opponents belt, palm down, and then take the other hand and grab the collar. They would push the collar across the throat and drive the opponent back, all the while controlling the opponents hip with the other hand in the belt. I heard that this grip was very successful and made it extremely hard to do traditional throws. Supposedly this grip is illegal in Olympic Judo now. Does anyone know the validity of this?
You can hold it for 3-5 seconds at a time I believe, you have to be attacking with it. If you are attacking with it, they'll allow you to keep it, but you can't use it to defend purely which kinda sucks IMO...change probably did come around to help the traditional style win though so your friend is correct in a way
You could get past that grip and do a throw, no grip can make a throw impossible (sacrifice throws come to mind to get around it), but yeah, it would make it hard to enter in on a guy.
Belt grips were part of the Japanese style and were previously used by smaller guys to keep larger ones at bay (ie. in defence), but the Russians had it so that they WANTED the belt, it wasn't just a place to grip if you couldn't get elsewhere...so they changed the nature of gripping in that people realized that you really can grip anywhere you want.
Like I said, the Russians got 4 bronzes to Japan's 3 gold and 1 silver at the first Olympics. Clearly the Soviets were the #2 team, a very good spot, but they didn't make Japanese judo useless either...
you're doing better than me...so far since I've been in Kingston for too long, I've only been able to compete in subwrestling and freestyle wrestling competitions (well freestyle because wrestling teams do it here instead of folkstyle)...
I've worn the gi if that helps in the subwrestling one one time...I've hit 3 big throws so far, that's it. I can't wait for judo comp. though, hopefully when I move to a bigger city in the summer I'll have some options for judo and maybe even sambo comp.
I still have a feeling that I should take a few months of boxing though...couldn't hurt at anyrate.
I am not sure the context of the word "despite" as it is used in your sentence is conveying your meaning Quincy-
"with the exception of..." would be more precise. Good luck with your article. I have a capsulized history of Judo in one of my books which is pretty basic, but pretty thorough as it includes dates and a chronological evolution of the sport. If you want more reference material, I can provide you with the website of the author.
well i just started judo about 8 months ago, the japanese terms are still hard to come by... i have been able to throw brown belts with good technique in training (im a white belt in judo) and take them down at will if shooting (even the instructors) but there is another white belt i CANT throw, for some reason he is hard for me to throw...
on the mat i havent had much trouble with any of them, the black belt is the most formidable and at times i have tapped to him. vice versa..
I have a BAD habit of falling to guard or shooting if i cant throw a high level judoka, will this affect my game badly? (for sport judo) or is it ok for me since im only a white belt?..please tell me some things you did to keep you from messing up parts of your game, doing diffrent sports..(i.e wrestling,judo and subwres)
Being the old goat that I am I have lived through innumerable competition judo rule changes and I do not like a single one of them with the exception of the increase in weight divisions for juniors and seniors.
It is now at the point where competitors play a game of making the opposition get a stupid posture penalty while they themselves have done nothing effective either, then riding the infraction for the W.
It was awesome in the sixties to watch dudes await the perfect time to launch a throw against an offensive juggernaught (bad posture and all) until an opening was found and then WHAM!
Also, all the new rules make refereeing a totally subjective adventure.
Sambo has no chokes as a means to dissasociate itself with Judo. That is the most valid reason.
This is all very interesting.
An extremely enlightening thread. Thanks, Quincy. Please post your theories as you flesh them out. I find your take on judo very reasonable and in line with the techniques I'm learning. I think you'd like my sensei.
A couple of points to consider,
Rule changes aren't handed down by the Japanese. The IJF is dominated by Europeans. The last real argument between the AJJF and the IJF was over the blue gi and the IJF passed the resolution.
The Japanese are the ones who have been most resistant to rule changes over the years. They did not want weight categories, they wanted longer matches, they wanted only waza ari and ippon etc. There are no rule changes that I can point to that were first proposed by the Japanese. If there are any rule changes that were originally proposed by the Japanese could you please point it out? The All Japan Championships didn't use the IJF rules for a number of years because they wouldn't allow kani basami and waki gatame straight to the ground. Think about it for a second. Wouldn't the Japanese proposing rule changes, be saying in essence that they were wrong? The rule changes over the years have come around because the Europeans wanted to be more competitive with the Japanese AND they wanted to internationalize the sport.
Shorter matches, smaller scores, etc favor the power game over the technique game. Do you think that is good for the Japanese style of judo?
I think you are starting from a completely false premise and you will come up with a bad answer.
I wish to god I had a scanner. I took about 6 rolls of film with Igor two months ago and two rolls were just on Russian grips and unorthodox gripping. Hopefully I will do a story on them for Grappling.
Here's examples of more stupid judo rules--this time at the junior level. I was at a tournament last year watching a junior match (13-15 years) and this one kid choked out another kid in less than a minute.
The kid that was choked out was crying, and his coach went over to the judges and they restarted the match. This time around, the kid that was choked out stayed away from ground work and eventually won the match on points.
Why was the fight allowed to continue?
Because the (choked-out) kid had moved up an age group!!! He was under the age for chokes, but decided to compete in the 13-15 division where chokes were legal.
My feeling is: hey, if you're not ready to be choked out, don't move up to a division where they can choke you out. That's just dumb that the refs allowed him to continue.
There are many potent unorthodox grips that were brought to the table by jacket grapplers from other styles, i.e. sambo, kuresch, etc. that enabled for big throws and actually enhanced the throwing game. The new grips were eliminated or greatly restricted and modified in competition judo shortly thereafter.
I could never figure out how the elimination of the new grips helped the offensive end of the game. Belt throws are spectacular, as are hands on both sides, deep gripping and grips on pants. The 3 - 5 second rule makes little sense because that is the bare minimum of time necessary to secure the grip against a moving, resisting opponent.
Newaza stalling should not be allowed but aggressive, attacking newaza is extremely fan friendly and time should be extented.
I think getting into the olympics was the final nail in Judo's "coffin", and the trend you mentioned is just a symptom of this.
Sport Judo became the primary focus of almost all Judokas to the detriment of other more "practical" grappling skills."
Wow Luke Beston made an intelligent, well thought out point instead of just attacking and being a troll. What will the world come to?
j/k actually it is true, when Judo became more focused on sport than being a martial art that is where it started to go downhill. I still love Judo, but wish so many places didn't put the emphasis on the sport part of it.
For what it's worth here are my observations on the different Judo styles I have seen, as to which one is closer to the original I am not sure.
Kodokan Judo: In my limited training there I found them toi be really opposed to my style of Judo, very straight, very orthodox gripping, little newaza. Great Tai Otoshi, uchimata, and harai.
Sport Judo(Tokai): I used to work with a sandan who trained at Tokai the few times I went out there it was similar to Kodokan but with much more power, and lower posture, they seemed to be able to quickly adapt to any unorthodox grip I threw at them, and over come it. I spent more time in the air than I did on my feet.
to be continued...
Russian Judo: My favorite. Seems to be most influenced by freestyle and greco roman wrestling. Definately influenced by a lot of the Caucaus wrestling styles with all the leg vining, etc.
Since rules define the sport, I wonder how Judo will look in fifty years, which styles will be most predominate and which throws and waza will be at the forefront?