Judo guy, nice point...
I must say that I feel that the compromises that have been caused as a result of judo getting into the Olympics have been worth it. I like throws, and the Olympics have caused a lot of new technique to be added to the art because the Russians, the Iranians, the Turkish, etc. all are bring their native wrestling traditions into the fold...
I just want a fair contest, and the problem with a koka and yuko ladder system, to me, is that a koka to one ref may be a yuko to another...
Give them a value of 1 or 2 points, and the 'mistake' by a ref is marginalized. I realize that a new problem may arise, and hey, let the next set of board members figure it out...
Rather them add more rules to judo (which they will), I would rather they simplify the gripping system and add the numeric point system (both of which make it easier to watch for a spectator)...if a new problem arises...well it always does it seems based on what you have pointed out :O)
There was an interesting interview with "Caque" in the new Grappling with BJ Penn on the cover. He said that the Judo developed by Kano bears only a surface simularity to the Jiu jitsu that was origonally developed. With the introduction on Judo into the olyimpics, it was changed further. I just cant help but feel Brazilian jiu jitsu is what Judo should have been. I mean no disrespect Quincy. I like to learn anything that can further develop my game. When I took a few Judo classes, it seemed like the focus was entirely on Judo as a sport and not a martial art for self defence. I have heard its different in Japan than over here in the states, but I think the advantage goes to someone who has a black belt in Judo to compliment their BJJ. Dont get me wrong, Ive had the living tar slammed outa me by a few Judo guys, but they couldnt tap me, when we went to the ground, they werent familiar with the specific techniques needed against an experienced Jiu jitsu guy, I would very much like to see judo change its focus from simply winning from a perfect throw, to scoring say 4 points for a throw and continue on the ground with simular BJJ scoring, rather than ball up and wait for the ref to restart the fighters. If they did that, and developed the guard and BJJ/submission wrestling type positioning and stress on submissions, I think Judo could take its rightfull place.
Pit Bull-Interesting thoughts, but I disagree wholeheartedly. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a style that is all about ground domination, and yet a huge percentage of its practitioners (myself included) can't even BRING the match to the ground against a strong Wrestler or Judo player. It's like being the best marksman in the world with no gun. Deadly under certain situation, but a fish out of water otherwise.
And I know this point has been debated into the ground, but let's think about the street; are you going to pull guard? That's risky at best. A nice harai-goshi might end the fight fast.
I agree that sport Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has evolved in ways that are more in line with the concept of maximum efficiency than Sport Judo, but it has also led to very one-dimensional players. (Just as judo has.) And furthermore, the same thing that happened to Judo may be happening to BJJ: No more heelhooks or biceps-cutters. BJJ, if it intends to remain true to its roots rather than appeal to a large audience, needs to be very careful to avoid the 'pitfalls' that Judo hasn't.
To me, the only people who really exemplify what Judo "should be" (can any of us really can make that assesment?) are The Camrillo brothers and Rhadi F. Guys that are trouble no matter where the fight is. Anyhow, imo, Sport BJJ and Sport Judo are both great sports; each has much to offer, but is incomplete on its own.
Train hard everybody,
Greg
Well don't forget Leo Leite then. He's a Pan-Am judo champion and a member of the Brazilian National team (for judo). Apparenlty he is going to try and get the #1 spot by 2004.
He's also a Mundial champion (bjj black belt with Alliance I believe).
Players like Neil Adams, Alexander Iatskevich, Kashiwazaki, Sato, etc. who were skilled at throws and groundwork should also be considered...
"I just cant help but feel Brazilian jiu jitsu is what Judo should have been. I mean no disrespect Quincy."
I don't take that as disrespectful in the least.In a lot of ways I believe you are right but in some I do not.
First, let me say that the guard game your talking about was what Maeda himself used in fights.
So to say it dosn't exist in a judo context is false since that is the absolute core of the innovation.Why do you use guard? It all comes back to judo..
I believe BJJ today is closer to the principles of physical Judo than Sport Judo is, no doubt.
It still however,IMO is a form of judo and believe me it does has it's faults as well.
This has been my argument all along.
People assume when I say that BJJ = Judo, I am saying that sport judo and bjj are the same and that is not what I am saying.
I am saying given the principles of physical judo,BJJ often holds true while sport judo does not...
In essence, it is more judo than sport judo...
Read the very principles that define judo and look to Rickson Gracie as a model of it.
If he is not what Jigoro had in mind,I don't know what is...
Great posts!
Good call Sothy. It was late, I was tired... The people I listed were models, not the ONLY ones who embody the principle.
Greg
ippon in sport judo is a single point win,either by throw,pin or submission.
think of a pin in wrestling...
same idea...
you can be down 9-0 and pin the other guy and win the match...
in judo if you do a great throw, judo pin hte guy for 25 seconds or submit him with a choke or armbar the match is over instantly...and it is called an IPPON
Everybody,
This is one of the greatest threads I have ever read. I hope somebody archives it. My dad instructed Judo for the Navy for a while, but since he was a workaholic, I never learned it. Instead I wrestled and now train NHB. I have learned more about Judo here than anywhere yet.
A judo blackbelt helps out with my Youth Group (I am a youth pastor) and has just agreed to trade some instruction with me. He is going to teach me gi work and throws, and I am going to teach him no-gi, more subs, and striking. I have always wanted to learn this.
Anyway, thanks for the great thread.
--Derelict