I would like to point out that "Toughest Man Alive" is a bootleg version of "The Godfather Of Grappling". They cost the same. "Godfather" has more photos.
"Karl understood he had to "work" but he is a very competitive guy and wouldn't bullsh*t anyone and had to go to Japan eventually to earn his living and train real shooters."
From Thesz he said that Karl was a Hard man to get along with because of this mind set also thats what probly hurt him in the long run as far as makeing any real money.
"I think Lou was a tough tough wrestler but not the best by any means (unless you judge him by ticket sales alone) when u compare him against proven competitive wrestlers like Danny Hodge and Karl Gotch."
same can be said about Karl he was great at teaching the japanese Catch... but when it comes down to putting your money where your mouth is....well thats another story as far as Proven again I quote Thesz when he locked Karl in the Wrist lock.
" I MADE'EM HOWL!"
forgive me I thank Karl because of him we would not have shooto or pancrase but facts be facts Karl over all has not shown anything that proves me he's some mythical Unbeatable master of catch-can... Great teacher YES he is Great grappler...maybe
maybe i was a little over the top.. but my feelings on the matter is Karl Gotch is seen as the front man when the term Catchwrestling comes up in speech when in terms Wrestling or competeing what has he done?
Karl did shoots on every continent in the world, except Antartica (where the penguins clearly outnumber him!)
All Karl cared about was shooting and every single day in the gym was shooting shooting shooting. He hates works. He did them, to make money to facilitate his love of real wrestling. Working took him around the world and as Karl says it: "When all the other wrestlers were knocking on whorehouse doors, I was banging on gym doors!"
soon we'll be talking about whose d@#k is bigger...just joking.
jake the snake and his "cronies" have a vested interest in clouding the water considering thesz's shooting ability.I.E. tony c's endorsement by thesz.Also, gotch was wrestling in the states in the mid 60s,so lebell was hardly a teenager.I don't have any feelings either way about the whole jake/tony ,days of our lives fiasco,but this is pretty much a bash-o-rama on thesz.But then again who can forget gotchs protoge gregory schmidts reign of terror in pancrase.so you guys are probally right.Peace
How is there "bashing" going on? Simply speculation based upon the testimony of the men that were there.
Gene flat out just told me he thought Karl would win (but said it would be close).
Dick Cardinal said Lou's competitive skills are not known.
Billy Wicks says the same.
Where is Gene's "vested interest", lol. Where's Billy Wick's "vested interest"?
C'mon DeBraco, why don't you bring something useful to the table besides name calling, dime-store psychologizing, and the disrespectful tone, hm? Are we sick of that in catch by now?
This is not bashing but some well reasoned and mostly polite discussion. Please re-read my posts. I do think Thesz was tough, no question. The best? I am not so sure. *shrugs
Gregory schmidt? Yeah I guess Thesz turned out some champs, right? Cecchine and Furey? Where are their guys?
Funaki... Hm. Oh yeah.
Aso. Oh another Gotch guy.
There a number of Japanese grapplers that would tell you are simply way out of line and way of base.
2 words,sour grapes,much like hack and jenkins vendetta against F gotch.I'm sure hack and jenkins had no motives for their statements.Not doubting anyone,it just looks very odd.
DeBraco, I wish there was some huge conspiracy theory where we all had a special meeting or something but instead a bunch of independent catch wrestlers and enthusiasts coming to the same conclusion.
Be sure to tell me though if you see the black helicopters or the Illuminati or something :)
Thesz said he was also a trainner of Kioshi Tamura besides Billy Robinson. like i said Karl knows his stuff when it comes to Catch.. but performing is a different story.
As for Gene Lebell i would never pass up his insight on the matter but Jake asking Gene who would win between Karl and Lou in a shoot is just his OPINION not a FACT but what is fact is that Lou for whatever reason did end a "work" that turned "shoot" between him and Karl with a wristlock a move Lou never used unless someone crossed him........ take it for what it is.
I never said thesz was the best,but am getting sick of gotch being refered to as the 2nd coming.The shifting of allegiences is like a soap opera.Have a bud light and chill out.It will take your mind of the everpresent fear of the jiu jitsu. : )
Lou vs. Karl, with input from Thesz's biographer and his wife, as well as Billy Robinson's son.
And speaking of Robinson, this is what he had to say:
Anyway........Dad has the utmost respect for Karl - said that in his prime (about 37-40), Karl was as dangerous as any catch wrestler ever.
Basically said that the folks at Wigan did NOT teach you how to wrestle by learning moves - they taught you how to LEARN how to wrestle - something that made those wrestlers continue to learn every dayand get better. Karl was far better 15 years after he left Wigan than on the day he left. He was given the gift, as was my father, to continue learning the art.
Dad was also highly respectful of Lou, and said pretty much the same about Lou's prowess. When pressed about who could beat who, my father balked - he noted that it was one of those things you never talked about. I guess the fact is that none of those wrestlers would have been at the top of their game had they not thought THEY were the best ever....get my drift? You had to have an ego, a big one to a certain degree, to be able to go into a ring and face off, otherwise you would be "man-beat" - afraid, in other words, and you would be beaten before you started. My dad said that the real key to winning a shoot was to know how to survive the first 15-20 minutes without getting hooked by someone more powerful. He said that Karl and Lou focused on conditioning so much because they both had the ability. Anyway, when pressed about Karl vs. Lou, he declined, but stated that in their primes, both would be among the most dangerous in the world. My dad also puts himself in the club..., and said that Billy Joyce was the best (in his mind).
everyone knows the Illuminati is a myth,the freemasons run the world :o
Oh did I say Gene's opinion was a fact? This is all just educated guessing (as is most history unfortunately). I am just trying to present perspectives that may not have been heard before.
Debraco, no one is making you read this thread at gun point, are they? Is it the men in black suits?
Awesome post oblono, thanks for the info!
i guess robinson hasn't heard your point of view yet jake,work on him and he may come around
In 1998 I had lunch with Gene LeBell at the Toronto Grappler's Challenge, or rather, I had lunch with my friend Mark Tripp who knew Gene and Gene sat down with us and chatted. Just to be factual. Tony and Matt were actually still together and starting an organization at the time and Tony had already bad mouthed Gene by then (sadly). LeBell's comments were that he had the utmost respect for both Thesz and Gotch and had learned things from both. But he did say that of the most precious tricks he had in his arsenal, the techniuqes he got from Gotch were really up there...
I have a DVD of Karl and Lou as tag team partners in a 1973 match against Antonio Inoki and Seiji Sakaguchi. Although this was a work, I was personally more impressed with Karl's wrestling abilities than Lou's.