Unfortunately, like most Judo guys, Karo gave Diego all kinds of space after throwing him. This allowed Diego to roll and wriggle out into a better position before Karo was able to secure top position and make his throw count.
I have trained with Judo guys who are great at throwing, but end up losing the takedown during the scramble for position that happens after the throw.
As a folkstyle wrestler, maintaining complete control over your opponent throughout the takedown and as soon as it hit the mat was crucial. I think that Judo rules, favoring the ippon give less incentive for players to control their opponent's on the way down.
It's nto so much a fault in Judo as it is in the way some people train Judo. But yes, a lot of Judo guys do not properly maintain control all the way down to the ground. The gi makes it easier to cover that mistake.
I agree. I started judo in college after wrestling and definately noticed that control after the throw is not as big of a concern. I dont think that Karo wasnt trying to control him, but rather the throws were so big that when they hit the mat it gave Diego a little bit of space to create a scramble. You have to remember too, Diego is a very good wreslter and is very good at improving his position.
Win or lose, I will always be a fan of Karo's. I am really happy Diego won but damn, those throws were the shit. Good heart from Diego for not just giving up after some of them. Many people would have lost their composure. If Dana White is reading any of these posts there will be a rematch for sure.
It's just the nature of a throw. There are positives/negatives to not following your opponent to the ground. In MMA, obviously you would benefit from keeping as close contact possible throughout the throw.
Yeah the throws were sick. But he was not coming up ina dominate poistion most of the time. He had great slams though and the throws are always fun to watch. He has to be the best at doing that shit.
Actually I agree it's a problem with a lot of judo guys. It doesn't matter so much if you're fighting on the street (landing on concrete or rocks is a lot different than landing on a sprung floor ... in fact staying on your feet after a throw is good if there are more than one attacker). But in MMA it is a problem.
He showed a more important problem though, the same one Nastula and Yoshida have shown ... the tendancy to go very hard for five minutes and then gas. Judo competitions last five minutes, which rewards people who can go full out for a short time, rather than people who can go 90% for a longer time. It can be fixed by training of course, you only need look at Fedor to see that ex-judoka turned MMA can get a bigger gas tank.
Diego pushed the pace, and by the third round what was a very even fight turned one-sided because of this.
Karo proably has done some folkstyle wrestling given that he grew up in California, so it isn't really a clear case of a judo weakness given the level of cross-training occurring these days.
I don't see Fedor losing position like that, and despite what some say, if he didn't learn his takedowns from judo, how the hell is he able to takedown people like CroCop when Coleman and Randleman fail to do so?
Diego is just damn fast...it is possible that a wrestler would lose a scramble to him as well.
i think it has a lot to do w/ throwing using a gi for so many years. it's a lot easier to control your opponent once you hit the ground using the gi. that said, i took the advice of the ug and looked up some greco alternate grips and was shown some by mayhem who's been working w/ lindland, and have found some really nice options that help you continue control once hitting the ground. i still consider my self a judo player, but wrestling gripping options offer a whole new world of possibilities. i'm fairly certain i've seen some russians and east euros using similar gripping though, so it's not brand spanking new. fctv
"i still consider my self a judo player, but wrestling gripping options offer a whole new world of possibilities. i'm fairly certain i've seen some russians and east euros using similar gripping though, so it's not brand spanking new"
I agree...freestyle wrestling also allows high-amplitude throws from the clinch (in the sense of double underhooks being legally clasped and 5 points being awarded for the throw) while also allowing one to do leg trips at the same time...
however, Karo comes from an Armenian-judo-style (ie. Soviet judo) dojo, so I'm sure his gripping would be heavily influenced by sambo and various non-jacketed styles from the Soviet Bloc...
his throws were fucking awesome to watch...I don't care about practicality in truth...I want to see fucking no-gi makikomis! That was just outrageous...
Also, traditional judo teaches you to remain standing after the throw. That's one thing I like a lot better about the wrestling variation of the hip throw: you follow your opponent to the ground and pin them.
traditional judo does teach you to stay standing, but you get the ippon if you follow them to the ground anyway...and competition judo doesn't teach you to stay standing in anyway (as you should follow up with a pin) since a lot of partial throws (ie. yuko/koka) are scored
sambo teaches you to stay standing to get the ultimate victory throw (ie. ippon), but we just posted that the Eastern Euros have a great transition to no-gi, so go figure...
at anyrate, staying standing is worthwhile to teach, as you can run away then...but if you are a MMA fighter, you gotta adapt (no running, one-on-one in a ring/cage). It seems that you also have to use more singles in later rounds when opponents get sweaty...even if you are Karo.
As someone who has wrestled and done judo, this is a good point but it isnt always about the style, its about the 2 fighters. Diego is a great grappler too.
It is harder to maintain control sometimes after high altitude throws but many single legs and double legs and be countered in ways too.
But the thing is that with singles and doubles you are usu. facing your opponent square...but of course, your opponent can still shuck you by and create an angle for himself.
But even when Karo took Diego down off the first takedown (inside leg trip) which is done both in judo and wrestling (and all grappling styles for that matter) and you land in guard, Diego still got up.
"Also, traditional judo teaches you to remain standing after the throw."
Well, for katas, maybe but for modern competetive judo, i was taught from day 1 to follow into hold down or sub (ie. armbar off armthrow).
But Karo knows what he is doing. He has been doing MMA alongside judo sinc he was a young teen.
Dont forget that Karo doesnt just do throws, he goes for doubles all the time, got plenty on Diaz and Diego. He just goes for whats there, like anyone else (and doubles are also part of judo...).
I think it is also- a little bit- the person you are throwing. If you are throwing around an explosive, strong, wrestling minded guy, he'll be more opt to instinctually scramble rather than lay there looking for a tie up.
But I totally agree about the distance thing. I dont want him to abandon the throws- they make Karo, Karo- but he could experiment modifying them a little bit, hell, maybe make them even more awesone.