Like some are saying, the guy being thrown is a large factor.
you guys are acting as if wrestlers never lose position on a takedown, which baically means you are full of it.
perhaps Diego was just able to squirm out or adjust his positioning as he fell better than others Karo has fought... ever think of that???
perhaps Karo, though his throws looked okay, was just off his game in the transition last night... ever think of that???
^^yay.
"you guys are acting as if wrestlers never lose position on a takedown"
Josh, please name one wrestler that has ever failed in this regard!
(this reminds me of the UG circa 98 when the double leg was unbeatable...)
I'm a jiu jitsu guy all the way, but if that was a street fight and concrete, diego would be in the hospital
Karo throws are SICK. His standup needs alot of work!!! His jujitsu is good enough to get him out of bad positions...but that's about it.
"..maintaining complete control over your opponent throughout the takedown and as soon as it hit the mat was crucial. I think that Judo rules, FAVORING the ippon give LESS INCENTIVE for players to control their opponent's on the way down.."
shadow is correct.
It's the rules, tradition, and culture of judo to focus on the ippon throw, which leads to lack of overall proper transitional position newaza training.
It's the reciprocal weakness of BJJ. That is why BJJ and Judo should be like ying and yang... complements, not rivals as propagandized by closed minded internet trolls.
sothy.. hmph.. idunno. can you name one or two?? =)
i mean, come on.. some of you guys are simply sad. here you are complaining about karo's throws--which were dynamic and exciting and, if they were done on a harder surface, would have put diego and every other mortal in the ER.
its like you guys coming here and complaining that Randy Couture's takedown skill was lacking when he shot in on liddel and either got stopped or punched. truth is Randy's skill wasnt lacking at all, but Chuck had planned and trained and thought, dreamed, lived and breathed those shots and simply had more success with his defence and couter than Randy did with the attempts.
what's even worse is that you are showing enough stupidity to put the blame on "judo." next time i see a takedown attempt get stalled i am going to take a chapter from you guys and blame wrestling.
JH, a suplex IS part of judo. its callued uranage and it is certainly a very popular throw.
that was a great fight!
much respect to both fighters.
"Mach Sakurai has always had good control on his judo throws. He owned Trigg with a few of them."
No, he didnt, he made the very same mistake we're talking about here: Mach threw, Trigg rolled thru and ended up on top. Mach then sacrificed the takedown with a sloppy sasae/front to front dropping twist.
"A tight suplex will always beat a wild judo throw.
But judo throws look really cool."
And a" tight judo throw" beat a "wild wrestling suplex. Take a look at that Karo HL, the majority of his throws are landed with him in top control, from guard to side mount. You cant take isolated incidents and make them the rule.
"Fedor's always a point of contention if he does Judo or Sambo."
Its actually BJJ.
Fedor now does sambo (as he said himself). He used to do judo very seriously (as he said himself).
Put it this way, Fedor was on the national team of the 2nd or 3rd best country in the world in judo. He got 3rd in their nationals, and medals in international competition. If that was wrestling, no one would be saying it's contentious if he wrestled. You don't get on the national team of a top 3 country in any olympic sport without doing that sport very seriously.
In fact, Fedor's judo record is much more impressive than Karo's (bronze in the US, a weak judo country and no adult international medals).
But in the ring, they all do MMA, not judo or sambo or wrestling or boxing or whatever. Pure styles lose. Quickly.
ttt
Man, typical UG, a little technique theorizing and some people go apeshit.
""Fedor's always a point of contention if he does Judo or Sambo."
Its actually BJJ."
The thing is, some people seriously believe that. Rorian for instance :)
Karo's throws were cool as hell!
Great thread! I enjoyed reading everyone's comments.
Karo's throws were ridiculuous, but it did seem disappointing that he wasn't able to capitalize on them all the time.
Diego is a very good wrestler with a "scrambling" type of style -exactly the type to foil Karo. It definitely made a difference that Karo was throwing Diego (whereas against other fighters -even the excellent wrestler Nick Thompson, Karo was able to dominate after the throw).
I just wanted to comment on a tendency I have seen in Judo players when I have sparred with them, watched them in MMA, or actually fought with them in MMA. Not everyone is going to lack control when taking the fight to the mat -Fedor is a great example.
Also, this is not to cast doubt on Karo's judo. It's amazing. His timing is off the hook. Did you see how he dropped into the inside trip off the two-on-one as soon as Diego's knee came up? Since Diego was on one leg, there was no way to defend the inside trip.
Perfect timing.
I would love to hear more opinions from Judo players.
fos
Grease works
The only way that Karo's throws would be effective is if Diego landed hard on his head, and he came close a few times. Otherwise, he should not attempt throws. I believe that he gets points for how the throws look, the crowd and judges like it. This is MMA and I am not impressed unless it wins fights. If I were at a judo tournament then I would be impressed. He is an elite grappler though,he showed that against Serra, but Diego is better and that is why Diego won.
I agree with that. If Karo can supplement his Judo with better top control and possibly more wrestling he would be in a lot better shape. Just tighten it up