This question comes from a thread debating use of kata in the TMA forum.
How was kata used in:
Japanese jujutsu and sword styles (before the Pax Tokugawa) and CMA (general sense)
I maintain kata served a few purposes:
First as record of applications. Also as a way to drill technique before trying to use it against an opponent. Also as a way to drill correct body movement.
I know what kata has become in the 20th century.
Does anyone know anything about use of kata like training drills in non Chinese/Japanese MA? Specifically ones that haven't gotten commericialized in the West.
I maintain the folks who developed "kata" were early practitioners of various "styles" who would most likely die if what they did was no good. Therefore, a perfect way to use kata today is to identify how those guys used kata.
In TCMA forms encode movements that can be used in a variety of ways. In principle, every individual movement can be used for striking, blocking/deflecting, and grappling (including releases, locks, etc.). The forms teach these (if decoded properly), as well as tactics, footwork, and the fundamental elements of a style. But along with that, they are intended to teach a particular type of energy, varying depending on the form. Some Chinese masters have gone so far recently as to say that once you master the energy of the form, there's no need to practice it any more. It's a different concept from what most of us are used to.
Dude, have you checked out Koryu.com? THE definitive one-stop-destination for classical Japanese martial arts information. They have numerous articles that deal with kata as practiced in the koryu (old school) traditions: http://koryu.com/library/titles.html
Also check out the books they have produced, the 3-volume Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan series (Koryu Bujutsu, Sword & Spirit and Keiko Shokon) great reading. In addition, check out Ellis Amdur's "Old School" which you can get from this site as well.
I practiced Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo/Jojutsu for a few years. The training in this style (as with most older Japanese styles) revolves around kata-training. Thing is, the Kata are all two-person forms, and not the familiar solo ones so popularly seen in Karate, TKD, etc. In Jodo, for instance, the focus of the kata is on the person learning the primary weapon (the stick), with the swordsman (usually the teacher, more senior person) initiating the attacks while the stickman defends in a set series of movements. This form of pre-arranged training is a LOT more ALIVE than the years of rigid kicking and punching air that I did in TKD forms-practice. The onus is on the trainees to ensure that the movements, though pre-arranged, are as realistic as possible - the swordsman attacks and cuts with full commitment and the stickman gotta make sure he defends/counters with committment as well. Some of the kata are longer and more elaborate, but most are short and to-the-point. The swordsman makes a cut, you get out of the way/deflect the sword-blow and counter right away, perhaps follow with another finishing blow - that's it. But it's this very brevity & precision, this staying a hair's breadth away from the attacking sword to make your own counter right away, which makes these kata that much more difficult (in a stay-absolutely-focused sort of way) than moving in myriad directions while punching air. My 2 cents ...
"The only thing left to add would have been some freestyle sparring. I wonder how much (if any) freestyle the Japanese used to do?"
AFAIK, kenjutsu schools had a big area for fighting with wooden swords.
Don't know about jujutsu pre Pax Tokugawa.
Of course, were there any jujutsu schools independent of kenjutsu? Perhaps they got their jujutsu practice in a similar sparring drill, one guy with a wooden sword and one guy without.
I would suspect they did lots of sparring. At least, I'd want to if I knew someone might be trying to cut me to pieces.
Sta pretty much nailed it. As a student of kendo and iaido I would like to note that kata is THE method of skills transmission in Japan. One budo researcher noted Japan even calls itself "a kata culture."
Weapons kata are like what Sta described, but it's also interesting to note that they're not much different than drills used in any other MA or combative sport. Movements, as Glenn said, have multiple functions. In Japanese MA what makes them works of genius is that a lot of info is encoded into these kata, so they're very essential.
Hard to know what free-play was done pre-Tokugawa. As you may know, kendo started out as a way for free-play in kenjutsu and developed into combative sport. I'm quite certain that for hand to hand and general conditioning most bushi engaged in a folkstyle sumo, especially useful when you consider that grappling in armor would have been the norm for them. For weapons they may have used wooden weapons with padding or fukuro shinai and padding, fukuro shinai beind a sort of shinai like the modern one split up into further pieces and encased in a leather sock-like covering. Pics of Maniwa-nen-ryu might yield images of sparring with fukuro shinai and padding.
But free play with weapons may not have been that big a part of the practice. How much free play does a modern army do? Not as much as they might like, although I hear they play a lot of wargames when they can. But, rather than free-play, they drill, and drill, and drill. Shoot, shoot, shoot. March, march, march. The modern army's Japanese counterpart may have been similar to this in doing kata, kata, kata.
Sounds like the forms for native Chinese MA were used like Okinawan karate kata were used until approx 1920.
That makes sense, since Okinawan karate is known to be influenced by Chinese MA.
It also fits with what a couple of other karate researchers (who's opinions I trust) told me on other websites. They said that Okinawan karate was transmitted via its kata a la the Chinese model. However, the only time you'd get the strategy/tactics of the Okinawan style is to learn/research all the kata it included.
Sounds like kata for native Japanese arts is more along the lines of Japanese karate's 1(2,3,4,5) step sparring.
That also makes sense. When the Okinawan style came to Japan, the Japanese looked at it and said "What? No 2 person, pre-arranged kata? We'll fix that."
Ok. Ya wanna find out the NEXT thing I'm going to try and do? I'm going to try and figure out the original handful of Okinawan kata that were derived into the Shotokan kata I do.
"Ok. Ya wanna find out the NEXT thing I'm going to try and do? I'm going to try and figure out the original handful of Okinawan kata that were derived into the Shotokan kata I do."
hey, haven't Karate historians like Harry Cook, Patrick McCarthy, Morio Higaonna, etc already figured out the original Karate katas, evolution, etc. and written about them in detail?
I've always wondered about the difference between the lengthy, multiple-movement Chinese kata and the short, two-person Japanese, and the bridge between.
"hey, haven't Karate historians like Harry Cook, Patrick McCarthy, Morio Higaonna, etc already figured out the original Karate katas, evolution, etc. and written about them in detail?"
Yep. I ain't gonna quit my job and go to Okinawa ;-)
Mark,
"Yep. I ain't gonna quit my job and go to Okinawa ;-)"
LOL!!!
"Sounds like kata for native Japanese arts is more along the lines of Japanese karate's 1(2,3,4,5) step sparring."
... ummm ... in the most general sense of the word. The older Japanese styles (at least the weapon styles I've been exposed to) are more than just defend-defend-attack. There is quite a bit of defend-attack-get countered-evade-launch your own counter going on. Sometimes you (defender) preempt the show by launching your counter before the other guy gets his attack going. The stuff might look simplistic and not-too-flashy to the uninitiated, but there are some pretty sophisticated stuff going on - and I'm speaking from my background of doing the most basic set of katas only.