Dave,
Tassoloff Burrfoot of the Dragon Lance Chronicles? LOL, haven't read that name in a while! Was Flint Fireforge a warrior dwarf in that story? That was good sword & sorcery much like Lord of the Rings.
If you are in to that type of stuff I read a six book series by Donaldson called "The Thomas Covenant Chronicles" about 25 years ago that was really good, in fact it was as good as Lord of the Rings. Ever hear of that?
Q, I remember you telling me about that, LMAO! The fact you do not know kata is my fault and I'm sorta proud you don't because it shows you spent your time training.
personally,
i think we need promotional tournaments in the USA the same as they have them in Japan. those are damn good ideas. the US Nationals, Fall Classic, NY Open, US Open should all carry a specific promotional edge to them.
-resnick
Ahhhhhh damn messed up again - it was Flint, but I read the other
series as well. And Josh they had them and then they took them
away.
David
We used to have those Josh and they were effective as hell. I used to love watching or fighting Batsugun. When is the last time you have seen one of those the traditional way?
My understanding is that your tournament wins in certain tournaments count toward your promotions. You must beat opponents of equal or greater rank however, which is difficult to find at your level. Problem is you ned to keep careful records of your points and time-in-grade, service to judo, technical proficiency, etc etc.
If my memory serves also, Judoka are categorized as either competitors or non-competitors with corresponding criteria for both.
So as far as I can remember, your tournament wins are supposed to count towards promotions, although this is just a "guideline" for yudanshakais. This is the problem. If you have kept and continue to keep careful records, build yourself a professional resume, which myself and all of our blacbelts do, and it's pretty difficult for them to turn you down.
its so damn near impossible to keep track of your opponets rank in the heat of things. it isnt as if i am just gonna go up to a fella from latvia and ask him what his rank is..
and it sure as hell isnt as if a fellas rank from the OTC is at all corresponding to his abilities. half that team is just shodans becuase, until this last meeting, Ed Liddie didnt have the ability to promote people accordingly.
far as i know, there are only a select few players who have the right ranks for their positions. im pretty sure it has always been this way, but that doesnt mkae it right by any means.
-resnick
I agree with Resnick on this one. What is an athlete supposed to
do after he slams the b-jesus out of somebody, or worse yet beat
them by a contraversial decision. Go up and ask hey what rank are
you.
If you can say I won the nationals in this or that division we all
know which divisions are strong and which are week. We can look
as a committee or how about some of the committee members
going to these events for themselves and seeing first hand?
David
"personally, i think we need promotional tournaments in the USA the same as they have them in Japan. those are damn good ideas. the US Nationals, Fall Classic, NY Open, US Open should all carry a specific promotional edge to them."
-resnick
Josh, I definiely agree that we need promotional tourneys in the states but I don't think we need to go about it the same way that Japan does. I live in Japan and have fought in many but I'm not a huge fan of the promotional system (although it is far better than what we have in the US).
Every promo tournament I have ever seen here is open weight. This means that a 100kg guy can get his shodan in spite of knowing very little about judo. All he does is walk through a few 50 kg junior high kids also going for their shodan. Obviously a little guy who makes it to sandan during his college years is a stud but unfortunately the big guys may or may not be. It thins out at the top, even for the big guys, but under this system there is just a huge discrepency in skill between the little guys and the giants.
In the states we'd definitely have a problem with numbers in that few states could assemble enough guys of a similar weight to hold statewide events. An option would be using higher profile events for this but then you run into the problem of guys having to travel to have a shot at a rank. Maybe regional promotional tourneys are the answer? Does the USJF do this?
Just some food for thought.
Go Duke,
-Blitzer
Dave wrote:"Ben, I know you do kata so don't take offense and Judo your wife may do kata, but do you truly believe that the traditional aspect is more powerful in the overall scheme of things. If they are truly attacked could they really beat the crap out of someone - Hell no. They have predescribed moves that are followed by a willing partner. The reaction time and efforts of a true fighter are worth more way more in my book."
My wife doesn't even do Judo, so no problem with that.
Dave, my view of kata is that it can be a useful training tool for Judo. I think I explained pretty clearly in my reply to Josh's post. Judo for me is about more than simply winning in competition, although I think that competition is a VERY important aspect of Judo, be you an elite athlete or a regional/local level player.
Regarding being truly attacked: kata is not supposed to be done in a vaccum. Randori and kata go hand in hand, along with shiai and all the normal related drills and exercises. Doing kata, regardless of ho9w good your teacher is, without randori, is not going to be effective in my opinion. In a "real" fight, attitude is probably more important than perfect technique, especially in a self defense situation against an untrained person. In Judo , you get the attitude from randori and shiai.
Those folks that do only kata are not going to stand much of a chance in any sort of "real" altercation I an imagine, especially some of the folks I see at national kata clinics at the US Open or Senior Nationals. A lot of them do not even do tsugi ashi very well, let alone any other sort of complicated body movement. Not very impressive at all in terms of apparent "fighting spirit" either. Kind of reminds me of aikido.
Dave wrote:"Does kata help folks in teaching hell ya, but that is it. You want to get the credit of a fighter and i mean a true fighter - not someone that falls down and yells, and wins sorry ass divisions, I am talking about someone that will launch you into the middle of next week, then those are those who should be getting the big credit in promotions."
I agree, Dave. Everybody should have to do each part of Judo, not just one part. Any elite competitor should be able to go through nage no kata and get the minimum score with very little practice, but whether they should have or not is another question. Offhand, I would say no, not necessary.
Dave wrote:"Folks that kiss ass and pay for their rank should be much lower on the feeding chart. Those that have done nothing for judo since they competed and walk in 20 years later should have to give a bit before just being given rank (but still faster then non-competitors."
Absolutely agree, Dave. If you can't do it on the mat, then no promotion. People who won't randori or do a minimal amount of shiai should not move up quickly or very high in rank. After all, randori and shiai are big parts of Judo.
"Resnick, you will never have to worry. Out here or anywhere else I will always keep your back in the rank (and many other) issues and if it means going in and pissing off some more traditionalist I am there. I do it everyday anyway, for you it is an honor."
I think you do true traditionalists in Judo a disservice when you write like that, Dave. A real traditionalist isn't going to make Jimmy Pedro do 3 kata to be godan or rokyudan, or Josh do any kata for yondan, if he/she sees what Josh can do on the mat.
Think outside the box folks or we will be going the way of the DooDoo as a sport.
David"
Thanks for the great post DAve!
Ben R.
I am pretty sure that the east coast YDK (Shufu?) still does big promotional shiai. I think Bull In Chinashop went to one recently and kicked ass and got promoted. I also think most of the bigwigs in the YDK are at those events making judgements on folks as they compete through the day.
I like that sort of hands-on approach. The promotion committee should know who the up and comers are, and be able to give advice to them and their coaches as they move through the ranks.
Ben R.
Ben - Shufu and Hudson do lots of big promotional shiai every year. Through the inspiration of Bull in Chinashop, I am going to them this year.
Hahahahahaha Ben - not your wife -judodog's
I mean no real disservice butit is true - and yes they would -
Fukuda - one of the biggest women's judo supporters was one of
those that asked for Liliko's numerous katas after her second
medal in the worlds. No disservice, I was there and that is when I
blew up - I was like Resnick is now (not a lot of tact). Maybe that is
why those folks took offense.
When Kata folks start gettiing out there and rumble with som ereal
athletes, not just each other then maybe I will change my opinion,
but I was there when Fukuda put up this one girl who could not do
an actual throw with a none kata format, meaning she hd to just
come in and throw - folks that is a basic. She got offended when
me and another instructor said that we did not want to pass her
student for shodan. Don't get me wrong I really like Fukuda
sensei, but I will not be bullied around by her rank and put up
someone rediculously lower then the intended rank while our elite
athletes are held down because they wish to perfect their fighting
rather then boring the hell out of themselves.
Ask anyone - everything I do is athlete motivated (real athletes -
not those that wobble around)
Lil's rank should have been a wash and I had to A. fight for it, B.
agree to a kata clinic for competitors once a term for competitors.
Yet I have never seen one kata person come down and rumble
here at state.
David
the point is that we shouldnt have to spend our valuable time training for tournaments to learn or do the kata.
and, ill be damned if we should come in on a saturday to do it either. i know that Fukuda and the rest of her kata-groupies come and use our dojo for clinics and i knew they were pissed when they saw us next door lifting weights.. heck, they even asked us not to be so loud because we were somehow distracting them. what the hell ever.
the kata is for those who wish to do it, the same as competition is for those who wish to compete. there is room in judo for everybody and there is absolutley no excuse or reason for anybody to be stepping on antoher's toes over stupid bullshit like this.
-resnick
Dave, LOL..........my wife has never put a judo gi on in her life, she just interviewed Fukuda Sensei. Yeah, you can tell what I think of Kata, seeing as how I have never done it. Nonetheless, I guess I just get a reaction when I read your "all-or-nothing" positions on some things, because in my view, it belittles what some very great Judo people have and are doing. Im not trying to dismiss your position, however, and I think its a valid point of view.
I also agree with you and josh about the improbability of tracking down foreign player's ranks. We all know it's pretty much impossible. Either way, a player can get rank points for placing at selected tournaments. As far as Josh's rank goes, he's about to get his Yodan with 18 years experience, which I think is outstanding and pretty much on track with where he should be.
As far as Fukuda Sensei asking questions about a promotion, I feel she has earned the right to question anything she wants to and when you make 9th dan, you can too, hell you already do.............LOL.
I feel you did the right thing in the face of the inquisition by standing your ground and fighting for the right thing. This is what must be done; albeit in a professional manner.
Dave, I have much respect for you in that you walk your talk, unlike so many others. You yell that people need to referee, and there you are doing it. You yell that people need to coach kids, and there you are. You advocate for student athletes (on and off the mats). I suppose I am just a little surprised at your intolerance for an integral aspect of what shaped the art in the early years.
Needless to say, although I may disagree with you on some things, I will always have your back.
Peace.....roof
you are funny as hell.
That was great - my point is not to hack on kata (much), but
rather to explain that there is no equity between the fighter and
kata person.
Like I said kata has its place - just not the place that allows them
to critique fighters. They should just say thank you and have a
nice day. there is a food chain for a reason - like it or not - in
every part of life. there are fighters out there who may never win
there state championship not to mention the nationals or
international events. Should they be able to critique whether a
winner of the Olympics as in "They don't know anything about this
or that because they didn't do kata"? Hell No.
Thanks for the support Dog - I will try to do more in teh future
and BTW there is stuff in the works that will be shocking people
soon insofar as academics and Judo kids and Nasa are concerned.
hehehehehehehehehe - fill you in when they allow me to say so.
David
Hahahahahaha Ben - not your wife -judodog's"
LOL! I guess I had better read a bit more carefully. My wife is an expert at verbal Judo, so she doesn't need the physical art.
"I mean no real disservice butit is true - and yes they would - Fukuda - one of the biggest women's judo supporters was one of those that asked for Liliko's numerous katas after her second medal in the worlds"
Wow, now that's a trip, Dave. Asking is OK, but to expect her to do 3 or 4 IS a bit silly.
"No disservice, I was there and that is when I blew up - I was like Resnick is now (not a lot of tact). Maybe that is why those folks took offense."
Why, Dave, you are the very SOUL of tact and discretion! I've never met a more discrete, subtle guy than you! Josh is similar, but a lot more funny.
"When Kata folks start gettiing out there and rumble with som ereal athletes, not just each other then maybe I will change my opinion,"
Kata folk do randori and compete, but of course not all of them. Anybody who is just doing kata, and no randori or no shiai (other than for medical reasons), is not really doing Judo. Whether Fukuda Sensei thinks so or not.
" but I was there when Fukuda put up this one girl who could not do an actual throw with a none kata format, meaning she hd to just come in and throw - folks that is a basic. She got offended when me and another instructor said that we did not want to pass her student for shodan."
Dave, I'm glad to see you spoke your mind. I agree with your assesment, even not having seen the girl in question.
Don't get me wrong I really like Fukuda sensei, but I will not be bullied around by her rank and put up someone rediculously lower then the intended rank while our elite athletes are held down because they wish to perfect their fighting rather then boring the hell out of themselves."
I agree. Good work!
"Ask anyone - everything I do is athlete motivated (real athletes - not those that wobble around)"
I know how your are, Dave. Consider that kata people are judoka too, however, to have the same standards of promotion for everyone is silly. Kata people can keep the tradition of kata alive, and there are all the other of us who do kata and learn from it but are not "kata" people.
"Lil's rank should have been a wash and I had to A. fight for it, B. agree to a kata clinic for competitors once a term for competitors. Yet I have never seen one kata person come down and rumble here at state."
I don't think most kata people "rumble". Seems a bit violent, don't you think? I think we can forgive them for not going and getting the crap beaten out of themselves at a highly competitive club. However, not doing any randori or even attempting local/regional shiai is ridiculous.
Ben R.
LMFAO - Thanks Ben
So ok we don't have them rumble here with Resnick (even injured
he would hurt someone), but how do we bridge that gap. Because
there are no kata people here in the bay area that do kata and
randori. Actually change my earlier statement - why shouldn't they
come down and rumble with state. They are holding our athletes
to teh same criteria as thier kata people? Wouldn't it seem fair to
have them come once a term to rumble as competitors must go
once a term to do kata?
Resnick is probably rubbing his hands together in anticipation.
David
Dave, I don't think its reasonable to have either side have to do either activity. Like Josh said, neither side should force the activity on the other for the simple reason of illustrating how great their side is under the guise of promotion requirements.
I also agree with Ben when he says that all Judoka should have to experience Randori and Shiai, although there comes a point in every judokas career where those activities just aren't reasonable anymore. I would also offer that it would benefit many students to be introduced to Kata at some level. My brother was a three time Junior National Champion in the 70's/80's and he practiced Kata. In fact, he was sent down to Santa Barbara to an almost all girl camp taught by Fukuda.......and he came back smiling...:-)
I have quite a few students that just aren't into the rough and tumble atmosphere of Shiai, and many that are. I have recently been considering Kata competition for those that don't like Shiai. I figure, it's better to keep that student in Judo rather than lose them if I require Shiai, which has happened to me in the past.
What I do for those that don't like Shiai as far as promotions, is require at least an in house Batsugun, which in our case is harder for the test taker.
I think discussions like these are very constructive because they can lead to reforms within US Judo. I often wonder if Im the only one thinking like I do, but its great to hear your guy's thoughts also. When our clubs get together and begin voting and changing policy, the old school good old boy networks will fade away.
I've rambled way too much this Friday.
Peace and have great weekend............Judodog
Agreed Dog - I see nothing wrong with the practice of Kata and if
people took that thought my apologies. I just do not think that a
kata person shouldbe deciding the fate of a promotion of a true
competitor. You don't see exclusively kata judges refereeing
competitors do you? No, so why should they get to dictate rank
from thier point of view. if they want to hand out rank like water
and lose their crediability that is on them, but as for competitors
they should judge themselves.
David
LMFAO - Thanks Ben"
No problem, Dave.
So ok we don't have them rumble here with Resnick (even injured he would hurt someone), but how do we bridge that gap. Because there are no kata people here in the bay area that do kata and randori."
None? Wow, that's amazing. Fukuda Sensei was a student of Kano's and Kano certainly advocated randori. I know that Takeuchi Sensei, who at one time was Fukuda Sensei's students(although it seems they "separated"), could sure as hell randori, as she beat the crap out of me more than once at kata clinics in Texas.
"Actually change my earlier statement - why shouldn't they come down and rumble with state. They are holding our athletes to teh same criteria as thier kata people? Wouldn't it seem fair to have them come once a term to rumble as competitors must go once a term to do kata?"
It IS hypocritical for them to not randori or even do one or two shiai and expect competitors to do the same stuff as pure kata folks. The requirements need to be balanced, not tilted purely in one direction. Kano himself said Judo was what, at least 1/2 randori? I think it was more like 75%.
"Resnick is probably rubbing his hands together in anticipation."
LOL! Surely Josh would not abuse a poor Kata practioner just because they want him to do Nage No Kata for Yodan?
Ben R.
David
I'm new into the judo community after much TMA followed by BJJ and I have to say I'm here for the randori and the shiai, not for the kata. I'm sick to death of cooperative partner exercises--why else do you think I showed up to a judo class?
It's really a shame that kata is so wrapped up into the promotional structure, since it has nothing to do with reality except for the coincidence that the moves in kata are the moves people use in randori. It's not like it's the same skillset, though.
I used to be a ballroom dance teacher, and if you want me to do something pretty, put some music on. If you want to see if I can throw/pin/armlock/punch/whatever somebody, let's do it when he's trying to stop me.
~TT