Train Judo --
The problem is your "frame of reference". In order for those elbows to be illegal, both fighters have to be perpendicular to the ground...IE...standing up...
If they are on the ground, (as kenny and joe were), they are not illegal because their bodies are parallel to the ground.
The rules are very specific when it comes to this.
I thought I read somewhere where Big John was taking the mystery our of the illegal elbow. He talked about the 12 to 6 rule. That 12 to 6 is a constant no matter of the position of the fighters. Kenny's elbows seemed to be 9 to 3 (horrizonal to the mat), the mat being another reference point Big John talked about.
THe point of the elbow is not the issue, you can hit with the point...it is the direction of the blow.
Sultan, please post the rule if you can find it because though its been a couple years since I have reffed the wording was at the time
"downward elbow strikes with the point of the elbow"
Now downward wouldnt necessarily mean you had to be standing, it is the motion, maybe they changed the wording but not when I was reffing. If so, I may be wrong, but it is a rule change since I reffed.
ok, for a moment there you guys had me questioning myself..
Here are the rules..
NAC 467.7962 Acts constituting fouls. (NRS 467.030) The following acts constitute fouls in a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts:
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fishhooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.
TrainJudo - Bullshit, they were illegal two fold..(A) you cant strike with the point of the elbow and...
TrainJudo - "downward elbow strikes with the point of the elbow"
So which of your assertions is it?
I think it was posted on a different thread.
Lots of guys get confused with it, though...Basically, what you say is true, but only if the fighters are standing.
I think it has to do with paralyzing a fighter with those types of "straight down" strikes.
Funny...Brock Lesnar lost a point for his opponent turning his head into the shots.
Now "downward" is the question..When I reffed it was the motion..I have taken points for it before. So if you are in your guard, now "downward" is towards your feet. Not towards the floor, though standing it is towards the floor. example of "downward" as opposed to Arcing would be like the elbows frank shamrock finished tito with, which were ceiling to floor, BUT, legal due to the arc. Did they totally define this lately because they hadnt before and if they did please point me in the right direction..
train judo - further detail from the nsac website
please post image
[IMG]http://i25.tinypic.com/2yn2bd2.jpg[/IMG]
![http://i25.tinypic.com/2yn2bd2.jpg[/IMG]](http://i25.tinypic.com/2yn2bd2.jpg%5B/IMG%5D){kind=link}
Kenny's Elbows were fine, Joe turtled. Great Fight!!! move on.
Talk Show On Mute, I didnt define it well enough in the first post, I assumed you would know what I was talking about.
Also, if you watch Shamrock-Tito, You'll see his first elbow before he hammer strikes to finish, Though it didnt make contact real well was "ceiling to floor and a point of the elbow" BUT, still legal because of the arc.
Now had he did it semi truck horn style (which is a downward point of the elbow strike, no different than Florians on Lauzon), it would have been illegal.
Like I said, this is how it used to be, if they made a change and actually worded it that you had to be standing, help me find it!
I have never read such a definition though..Im not trying to prove ya wrong, maybe I am but I wanna see it defined.
downward equals toward the floor, this has been clarified before. Pointed elbow strikes that are perpendicular to the floor are illegal...
kings, I cant find it as defined that way, can you point me to it in the rules? They must have done an ammendment to them but I cant find it.
kingsama - downward equals toward the floor, this has been clarified before. Pointed elbow strikes that are perpendicular to the floor are illegal...
kings is correct. Downward is downward. The frame of reference doesn't change. Ceiling to floor. If you're on your back, you're not elbowing cieling to floor, you're elbowing more like wall-to-wall.
BJM clarified this misconception over a year ago after it came up in the Silva-Lutter fight.
Another wording of the rule NSAC style
" Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
All elbow strikes are legal except for an elbow that is thrown in a downward trajectory (hand traveling from 12 o’clock to 6 o’clock). Any elbow thrown with an arc is a legal elbow. The point of the elbow may be used as striking instrument as well as the forearm or the tricep area of the arm."
Dosnt say standing or ground..When and where was this defined as having to be standing..Anyone? I see some jpg image defining it in some way on a few sites but the pic dosnt show up..wtf.
hardcharger is right BJM did clarify it after that fight, but the word down always means, well toward the ground or to move from high to low, not across.
down (doun) pronunciation
adv.
1.
1. From a higher to a lower place or position: hiked down from the peak.
2. Toward, to, or on the ground, floor, or bottom: tripped and fell down.
BJM clarified it? So he himself declared it a rule that way, or it is a written athletic commission rule "ceiling to floor"? I want to see it written by an athletic commission..Interpretation isnt a defined rule, imo. Cause I have a differing view. What the heck is the difference?
it does not need to be clarified, again down always means toward the floor, whether it is standing or not any pointed elbow strike going down(see definition above) is illegal, pointed elbow strike across, or even up see A. Silva reverse elbow ko are perfectly legal...
kingsama - hardcharger is right BJM did clarify it after that fight, but the word down always means, well toward the ground or to move from high to low, not across.down (doun) pronunciationadv. 1. 1. From a higher to a lower place or position: hiked down from the peak. 2. Toward, to, or on the ground, floor, or bottom: tripped and fell down.Kings, if you walked on walls and tripped and fell down, down would be the wall you walked on..Bottom is all perspective. If you lay down do you say the bottom of your foot is now your achilles? I dont, the bottom of your foot is the bottom of your foot.