Has it been determined if there is a lot of actually rolling in the Gracie Combatives course? I have the videos, and I enjoy the techniques immensely.
However, unless you are getting some decent mat time, and develop timing and sensitivity, I dont think just knowing the techniques will help against a truly aggressive person.
kying418 - Has it been determined if there is a lot of actually rolling in the Gracie Combatives course? I have the videos, and I enjoy the techniques immensely.
However, unless you are getting some decent mat time, and develop timing and sensitivity, I dont think just knowing the techniques will help against a truly aggressive person.
no,you start rolling at blue or 4 stripe white.it seems to work out.less injuries,ppl seem to stay longer,and a few other things .
i think you will see a lot more of this structure,not the combatives,but no rolling for newbs.the gracie make a living teaching bjj and have been doing it for a while and this works for them.
if american from gracie torrance go to brazil and teach combatives will you guys feel better about the program ?
dbl
12 -kying418 - Has it been determined if there is a lot of actually rolling in the Gracie Combatives course? I have the videos, and I enjoy the techniques immensely.
However, unless you are getting some decent mat time, and develop timing and sensitivity, I dont think just knowing the techniques will help against a truly aggressive person.
no,you start rolling at blue or 4 stripe white.it seems to work out.less injuries,ppl seem to stay longer,and a few other things .
i think you will see a lot more of this structure,not the combatives,but no rolling for newbs.the gracie make a living teaching bjj and have been doing it for a while and this works for them.
if american from gracie torrance go to brazil and teach combatives will you guys feel better about the program ?
I'm actually all for positional training and no live rolling until you have a number of lessons under your belt. I think it is a great idea, and also a smart business technique.
Having said that, if there is no real live rolling or extensive positional training, then I dont think they can say their Gracie Combatives course is better for self defense than any other standard bjj school.
do they say that?
TraneUFC - ^^ Don't laugh. I Have seen it firsthand. The guy who grabbed him was huuuuge. Got his neck in a deathlock, he could barely move, hadn't practiced any escapes, and actually passed out.
Really? How experienced was the guy in the headlock? Sincerely curious, this scenario is often discussed, but I haven't heard many real world anecdotes. Size and strength always play a factor, there are MANY dudes who I would not want to try to escape a headlock from, and I have been doing this stuff a long time.
Judo Scott - LOL @ gracie combative guys or joe blow blue belt having a 1/2 guard that keeps them from getting their face smashed in.
THIS!!
MickColins -12 -I disagree. I think, if you train how to defend strikes when in the position, half guard is fine. More than that, I find Half-Guard works well with people bigger than me. I rolled when I first started BJJ with a guy who was 375 and full guard was impossible on him.
i think the 1/2 guard is the worst position to be in for a fight ,
I agree with Mick, if you train half guard in an MMA environment you will not make the mistakes sport guys make when they transition over and end up in half guard.
JRockwell -TraneUFC - ^^ Don't laugh. I Have seen it firsthand. The guy who grabbed him was huuuuge. Got his neck in a deathlock, he could barely move, hadn't practiced any escapes, and actually passed out.
Really? How experienced was the guy in the headlock? Sincerely curious, this scenario is often discussed, but I haven't heard many real world anecdotes. Size and strength always play a factor, there are MANY dudes who I would not want to try to escape a headlock from, and I have been doing this stuff a long time.
Coming from a judo and wrestling background I've rolled with a lot of pure/sport bjj guys who were positionally weak when it came to nonstandard(bjj) holddowns. Headlocks/kesa-gatame and north-south especially. The preference for mount as THE dominant position really hampers a lot of grapplers, in my opinion.
12 - do they say that?
They might not, but Kid does:
"
After watching the Gracie Combatives group class, (Note: the entire program is also available on DVD) and hearing what Rener and Rorion had to say, it just solidified my belief that, although BJJ has a fun competition side to it, the most important aspect is being totally neglected at most schools. The greatest benefit for us "normal" people to learn BJJ is the increased confidence we gain from knowing we can defend ourselves in a real fight, and with Gracie Combatives that is exactly what we get."
dbl
Missing Glove Tape -JRockwell -TraneUFC - ^^ Don't laugh. I Have seen it firsthand. The guy who grabbed him was huuuuge. Got his neck in a deathlock, he could barely move, hadn't practiced any escapes, and actually passed out.
Really? How experienced was the guy in the headlock? Sincerely curious, this scenario is often discussed, but I haven't heard many real world anecdotes. Size and strength always play a factor, there are MANY dudes who I would not want to try to escape a headlock from, and I have been doing this stuff a long time.
Coming from a judo and wrestling background I've rolled with a lot of pure/sport bjj guys who were positionally weak when it came to nonstandard(bjj) holddowns. Headlocks/kesa-gatame and north-south especially. The preference for mount as THE dominant position really hampers a lot of grapplers, in my opinion.
I've rolled with quite a few high level judo players and wrestlers in my day, and for sure, their kesas and headlocks were nothing I wanted any part of. That is where the whole "never ever ever ever ever let them pass your guard" strategy comes into play. :)
And when I say "I haven't heard many real world anecdotes" I meant regarding purple belt level BJJ guys or above who had trouble escaping headlocks (not kesas) because of technical deficiencies. I'm very sure it's happened many times, I just haven't heard many anecdotes, that's all.
Missing Glove Tape -JRockwell -TraneUFC - ^^ Don't laugh. I Have seen it firsthand. The guy who grabbed him was huuuuge. Got his neck in a deathlock, he could barely move, hadn't practiced any escapes, and actually passed out.
Really? How experienced was the guy in the headlock? Sincerely curious, this scenario is often discussed, but I haven't heard many real world anecdotes. Size and strength always play a factor, there are MANY dudes who I would not want to try to escape a headlock from, and I have been doing this stuff a long time.
Coming from a judo and wrestling background I've rolled with a lot of pure/sport bjj guys who were positionally weak when it came to nonstandard(bjj) holddowns. Headlocks/kesa-gatame and north-south especially. The preference for mount as THE dominant position really hampers a lot of grapplers, in my opinion.
I dont think a brown or black belt has too much trouble in any types of hold down positions. However, if anyone has extensive grappling experience (judo, wrestling, etc), they can and will often times be able to dominate white, blues, and even purple belts.
I think the guys you rolled with that were positionally weak was because due to your own grappling experience and skills- not because they favor the mount over anything else.
How often do you look for headlocks/kesa or north-south during a roll? How often are you caught underneath?
When I say the people I've rolled with were positionally weak it's not due to me being anykind of high level grappler or world beater. I'm just saying that just like there are differences in the way 'most' judoka play guard, there are real differences in the way nonstandard positions are looked at/played in bjj. In every school but one(w/a strong judo presence) that I've trained at nonstandard positions were looked at as lesser positions because they didn't offer a lot of finishes.
There's a noticeable difference between judo/wrestling and bjj in how 'heavy' people lay in positions as well.
Sorry, quotes got all messed up during the edit. :(
@Missing Glove Tape - All the points you made are very true. BJJ guys who have not gone outside their comfort zone and experienced these scenarios will be very likely be caught off-guard. Luckily, though, there are enough wrestlers and judoka who have caught the BJJ bug that if you look hard enough (even within the art), you can find some monsters who will will check your non-traditional pin escape game. And if you can't find them at your gym, go to a judo gym or a wrestling room and have fun! :)
You're right. And all the gyms/schools with their share of judoka/wrestlers are all the better for it. But I don't think that's the point KP was making, and certainly not what I was commenting on in my post.
Just as a combatives guy with limited mat time will likely get smoked by a competitive bjjer, the confines of bjj as a sport is what I think accounts for things like weakness in nonstandard positions. Just like jumping guard weakens the takedown game over time, so too does the guard-half guard-mount-sidemount mentality as well.
Missing Glove Tape - You're right. And all the gyms/schools with their share of judoka/wrestlers are all the better for it. But I don't think that's the point KP was making, and certainly not what I was commenting on in my post.
Just as a combatives guy with limited mat time will likely get smoked by a competitive bjjer, the confines of bjj as a sport is what I think accounts for things like weakness in nonstandard positions. Just like jumping guard weakens the takedown game over time, so too does the guard-half guard-mount-sidemount mentality as well.
I see your point. I think there are definite weaknesses in all martial arts in terms of self defense applicability.
I think that's the inherent danger of saying bjj, Gracie combatives, etc, is great for self defense. Sure you will have an advantage, but there are just too many variables in a real life situation. (I remember Roy Harris speaking about this quite extensively, how in a self defense situation, he could just easily bite someone and have them release an effective bjj position or hold).
No style is all-encompassing or an island unto itself(innovation). But I don't think that's the point, either. BJJ has simply moved too far away from its roots(self-defense) and Combatives is an attempt to reel it back in that people like KP are taking notice of, and agreeing with.
I think Kid Peligro's commentary on current sport BJJ is very accurate. The game these days bears so little resemble to any self defense application. You just have to look at most instructional videos to see the problem. The emphasis is on exotic positions and sweeps.
shen -
Looks like Kid Peligro and the Gracies have finally buried the hatchet.
LOL awesome