There are some variations on the side mount regarding hand positions. One hand can be f.ex. under the neck or under the far shoulder. The other one can be f.ex. under the far shoulder, between the legs or grabbing the near hip. I have a fair understanding of the pros and cons of each variation.
However, can anyone tell me what are the pros and cons of having your knees in close to your opponent when you are side mounting him/her as opposed to having your legs straight?
The only thing I do know is that if you have a knee up against his neck it limits his head movement and can be good for attacking his far arm, but if you straighten that leg you'll create more pressure on his chest. If the other leg is close to his hip, he'll have a harder time putting a leg across and putting you in his guard, etc.
My question is: Should you always TRY to have your legs close to your opponent when you have side mount and only straighten your legs to fight his hand work, or should your footwork strategy/positions be something complete different?
you're right. The best side mount you can use is with the knees in close. Having your legs out is usually a transitional type of side mount used to get them close or to switch to another position. An optimal sidemount is even tighter than a full mount: have one arm under their head and the other arm coming under their far arm and c-clamp them, have their other arm cleared so their elbow isn't underneath you, and have your knees touching their side(or on their stomach) and up against your own elbow. Having your legs out is actually not tighter than having them close, because it's much easier to spin back to guard. When you're in close with an optimal side mount, there is little they can do other than wait for your next move. That's optimal, doesn't mean you can get it every time, so you just have to work with what you have, hence lots of types of side mount. That's just what should be aimed for, for the tightest and most secure side mount.
Good question as usual, jonpall.
I do both regularly, and for different reasons.
I keep my legs outstretched when the opponent is turning into me really hard or is hard to hold down. This keeps the weight firmly on his chest, and he's pinned better. But, here you sacrifice maneuverability, meaning it's harder to transition to other positions.
I bring my legs in for a few reasons, but it all starts with isolating the arm. I use my knee to trap his near arm to set up transition to scarf hold or north/south (I always use scarf to transition). There is also a near side arm bar combo that works well from this position. I also use it to transition to knee on belly. But here its harder to hold him down or prevent him from recomposing. Personally I prefer this side mount, it better suits my 'style', for I like to stay fast and mobile.
When your legs are out it's harder to roll you but easier to put you in guard. Knees close is the opposite. With your legs out you can put more of your weight on your opponent too, driving off your toes. If your knees are in, your weight is usually on knees and toes. In general knees in is considered better.
I like to do a compromise. The knee that's near his legs is in close blocking him from putting me in guard. The leg near his head is out and I'm driving forward with that leg, hips in.
Often when I block his near hip with my hand, I will extend both legs, because it's hard for him to put me in guard anyways.
Now THAT'S the reason why I keep coming to this forum! Your answers have exceeded my expectations. Thanks guys!
jonpall.
Andrew: It's interesting that you prefer to put the head side leg out and the hip side leg in, because this is how Joe Moreira teaches his first 2 basic side mount variations:
The first variation is for holding him down and getting yourself in a more attacking position. It's not that good for attacking him. One arm goes under his far shoulder and the other arm holds the cloth/pants/belt at his near hip. The leg that's closer to his head is out and the other one is in.
The second variation is a more of an attacking position, aimed primarly at his far arm. You have both arms past him, usually under his far shoulder. Both knees are in.
I usually switch between the sidemount I described and that 2nd one you're describing there. Also use as necessary, the first one you listed there.
I agree, this is why I come here. Thanks guys.
Let's discuss the purposes of your arm and leg that's closer to his head:
When you have a knee close to his hip, it makes it harder for him to put you in his guard. But what is really the purpose of having the other knee up against his neck or side? Is it just to nullify his defences from his near arm?
And what are the advantages that the version in which you have an arm under his neck has over other side mounts? When should you use that position? Is it something to use against opponents that turn hard towards you? Don't you solve that problem by straightening your leg that's closer to his head?
I'm just questioning the use of this position in BJJ or MMA. Does this position cover any problems that can't be covered by another version of the side mount? I'm also wondering if you should ever go for a regular scarf hold (kesa gatame) as opposed to a modified scarf hold (with your far arm under his far shoulder)?
"When you have a knee close to his hip, it makes it harder for him to put you in his guard. But what is really the purpose of having the other knee up against his neck or side? Is it just to nullify his defences from his near arm?"
Yup, exactly. If you can switch your hips and "kill" his near arm by trapping it (high, behind his tricep) between your high hip and his head, you have taken away one of his biggest escape tools - the ability to push on your hip.
"And what are the advantages that the version in which you have an arm under his neck has over other side mounts? When should you use that position? Is it something to use against opponents that turn hard towards you? Don't you solve that problem by straightening your leg that's closer to his head?"
This is my current favorite, and it's mostly because of the pressure you can apply to his jaw with your shoulder. Guys with a strong bridge will still threaten to off-balance you if you don't keep them facing away from you with that shoulder. Obviously you have to let up a bit once you start to attack, but that pressure on their jaw often forces them to move, creating openings that might otherwise not present themselves.
"I'm also wondering if you should ever go for a regular scarf hold (kesa gatame) as opposed to a modified scarf hold (with your far arm under his far shoulder)?"
I hardly ever use regular scarf hold. I simply don't feel safe there. Part of it is that I need to drill it more, part of it is simply the nature of the position. I like modified scarf hold very much. I think continually attacking and transitioning from crossbody, modified scarf, and north/south is very hard to deal with.
Best,
Jeff
ttt
"
"And what are the advantages that the version in which you have an arm under his neck has over other side mounts? When should you use that position? Is it something to use against opponents that turn hard towards you? Don't you solve that problem by straightening your leg that's closer to his head?"
This is my current favorite, and it's mostly because of the pressure you can apply to his jaw with your shoulder. Guys with a strong bridge will still threaten to off-balance you if you don't keep them facing away from you with that shoulder. Obviously you have to let up a bit once you start to attack, but that pressure on their jaw often forces them to move, creating openings that might otherwise not present themselves."
Ok, that's a good explanation about what it does, but when should I go for this position?
ClinchAndHit is correct.
Re: scarf, scarf is all about controlling the near arm. IF he gets that elbow in tight to his body, you're probably screwed. In gi, it's easier to control the arm, in no-gi or mma when you're sweaty it slips right out. Probably the biggest reason that scarf isn't well regarded is that it's difficult to transition to other positions from there without leaving room to escape.
I pretty much like to crossface him with my shoulder by default. If I am going for certain submissions or going to another position, I'll let go of it. But if I can't think of something to do, or I'm resting from a failed attempt, I'll be putting my shoulder in his jaw. It's always good. It helps against most any escape and makes him very uncomfortable.
Another reason it's good is that you can use a pulling motion with your arm that's under his head grabbing his lat to make yourself feel heavier. Or if you have an underhook under the far arm and you go palm to palm, you can pull with both arms. This is how 150 pound blackbelts make themselves feel like they weigh 300 on top of you.
"I'm also wondering if you should ever go for a regular scarf hold (kesa gatame) as opposed to a modified scarf hold (with your far arm under his far shoulder)? "
the modified scarf hold is the safer version, and is better for transitions. The headlock version is best for when you're going to attack the near side arm from it. ex: key lock from scarfhold with your legs wrapping up their arm. That move almost requires the headlock version, so that you can pull up on the head to apply the armlock.
"Ok, that's a good explanation about what it does, but when should I go for this position? "(sidemount both knees in)
It is just the tightest version and hardest to reverse, since their arm is trapped between your leg and arm. You use it to hold them down until you decide how you're going to attack. It's your base version of the position. You use it to establish an extremely dominant sidemount giving you a very secure position to work from, then from there you can move into your modified versions to attack. It's not very far from transitioning to an attacking position: slide your arm out from under their neck and over to have both arms wrapping up their far arm. You can easily come up to a knee on stomach to attack from(get ahold of something then go to knee on stomach to finish, etc)
Can someone archieve this thread, please?
i think you should do one knee in and one leg out...the knee in is by the legs to keep the opponent from getting the guard and you have your hips low.
I usually wait to archive a thread until it's around the 150th thread in the list. Because archiving removes it from the main forum, I wait til activity dies down. Will do so when the time comes.
Andrew Yao is very correct. Just in general, not necessarily about me being correct. ;)
When should you go for that "shoulder in the jaw/underhook the far arm" position? All the time! Like Andrew said, you can use it to solidify your initial pin, recover from a failed submission, nullify one of his escape attempts, or simply grind him with it till he makes a move and opens something up. It's a great position, especially no-gi and MMA because you can still generate a lot of pulling power without having "handles" to grab onto.
IT's already been said very well, but I'll go on the record as saying I like to hold it down with the knee at the hip and the other leg out, like Andrew. Sometimes I pull both legs in, when I'm looking for subs.
Greg
Also, if your legs are out, your knees should not be touching the ground. That defeats the whole purpose. You want to keep all your weight on him. Keep your hips low and thrust forward. Now, this does take a little bit of energy on your part, but it takes more out of him. That goes for north south too. It's valid to have your knees in tight in north south. But if your legs are out, do not put your knees on the ground, that's terrible.Same thing if you're sprawled on someone.Here's a pic of me in competition. My hips should be lower and I should turtle my neck more. http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~unruhe/pics/new/andrew_gi_ontop.jpg