I watched some Pan Ams footage (2005?) of Kron competing as a
purple belt, and he finished 3 or 4 opponents with the same choke
from top half guard, overhooking the head, latching onto the collar,
and raising his upper body to finish the choke. It looked like he was
generating a TREMENDOUS amount of pressure, kind of like a bow and
arrow choke from the back, except inside the half guard.
I've been playing around with it in class this past week, and can't seem
to apply the pressure needed to get the finish. Anyone have any idea
what I could be missing? I am unclear primarily on where the non-
choking hand grips, and how to posture up once the grips are in place.
come down to the Rickson academy in LA, sign up and train in the group class to find out and experience it. you'll be kidding yourself to try and learn it any other way.
I saw the Pan Am footage too and you can't get a clear shot of what he is doing. Everybody assumes he is grabbing the opponents lapel but I believe he is grabbing his own lapel.
Carlson taught me a variation of the guillotine where you grab your own lapel with the arm that is around the opponents head. Grab it as high up as possible and you won't believe the leverage you can generate in a classic standup or knee to knee position. Same thing from half guard on the top. You can put your free hand on the mat or on the opponent. Just raise your torso up and see how fast he taps.
Try it for yourself but be careful you don't pop your partners head off in the process. I'm not saying for 100% that this what Kron is doing but I know it works better than grabbing the opponents lapel.
Tip: When you have your arm around the opponents head guillotine style, you won't be able to reach very far with that same hand. Hold your lapel open with your free hand and bend over with your body to bring your lapel to your hand and not the other way around. Reach as high up on your lapel as possible and when you raise your upper body you will have tremendous leverage.
think what you like but there isn't a better substitute for training it directly at Rickson's. Everything else is an imitation or substitute at best; which might work for you all things considered.
I think your missing the point dafelst...the post was about somebody looking to do the technique the way Kron does like he did in the Mundials (and other tournaments). To do a technique a particular way, you should train with that person directly that's all...seems reasonable to me...if you're looking to learn how to do a technique or to explore an idea behind a technique (not assuring efficiency or effectiveness of course)...do that however you want and you feel works; even if that is dvd's, internet forums, etc. To your point, and for me, I would rather learn a judo move at the Kodokan than from a dvd or an internet forum...
with the non-lapel grabbing hand reach as an underhook on his near arm and grab the back of his lapel(by the nape of his neck) other wise...no pressure.
You can do it the other way too. without overhooking the head but with your arm under his head and grabbing the lapel. then your free arm underhooks his far arm and grabs the neck part of his lapel.
Thanks RealPosition. I'll try gripping my own lapel and see if that does
the trick.
MasterDebater- I will try your suggestion too, but in the footage I saw,
Kron's non-lapel grabbing hand was definitely not on the back of the
neck/collar... it was somewhere down by the leg, and it appeared as if
he was pulling up on the lapel and the leg, sort of like a reverse bow
and arrow choke. However, I haven't been able to duplicate it in
training as of yet.
If anyone else knows what I am attempting to describe, please fill me
in.
sreiter- I never said he would just "tell" you, nor would I necessarily expect him or others to...like I posted, you could "experience" it by training there...as in being tapped by it!
dafelst- Wow! Why the hostility? there is definately not that vibe there from what I hear! Don't be so cynical!
I think we can pull a page from finance when thinking of this and other successful techniques in BJJ...in hedge funds and trading oftentimes a trading strategy is discovered that provides an advantage so someone can "arbitrage" the market...however, when everybody is seeking an advantage or an "arbitrage" eventually that technique is discovered and copied and the advantage is competed away. Also when everybody is seeking these opportunities they are harder to come by...when these "arbitrage" opportunities are hard to come by, in finance this is the result of transparency and an efficient market (and "one price" but I won't get into the details here). All good things obviously. From this efficiency and transparancy in BJJ techniques, we have evolution and growth...but, BJJ is competitive and to think those techniques are given up easy is to not accept the reality that each player is trying to win like each trader is trying to profit for themselves! To think otherwise is to think BJJ is more akin to socialism! I can't speak for you but I'm too much of a capitalist to think that!
eggman: I disagree with your analogy. Free capitalism would dictate you could purchase anything for the money so by that rationale if you're paying they should teach you the damn choke. Thanks for the heads up. I guess I will stick with the Gracie Academy when I'm in LA. I don't know how things were under Rorion and Royce, but under Ryron and Rener these guys on just dying to show you everything they know and everything they come up with.
Also its a pretty unenlightened way of thinking to think that if I learned 1, 10, or 100 techniques from Kron, I would all of the sudden magically be able to tap him. TMA (Traditional Martial Arts) way of thinking imo.
Guys! Your missing the forest for the trees in what I'm saying!
First off, sreiter, as much as it sounds you would hate for me to say this I agree with you with you and JasonGV 100% in your Rolls quotes..And what you say does not actually disagree or invalidate what I'm saying...it actually is in agreement!
I think for me to clarify I would have to go into a finance discussion (which would bore everybody probably) vs. a BJJ one...my analogy was exacty what Rolls said and you quoted...transparancy of information and efficient markets/pricing (BJJ translation: teaching everyone everything, don't hold back from students)...everybody seeking the pricing/arbitrage advantage (BJJ translation: better team mates/students). This transparancy of information, competition of the agents involved brings a more efficient market (a hallmark of a capitalist system) and more competitive products (BJJ translation : better players, higher level!).
So what does that all mean? Like in a market, access to information, transparancy of information and competition is good for everybody involved. Better prices, better products (better techniques, better players).
The Kron technique discussion I compared to a hedge fund trading technique...these techniques eventually get out to the market as people imitate and copy, but then the advantage from people not knowing it goes away...
fatbuddha: I won't bother comenting on what you said as it demonstrates how you didn't understand and have no idea what I said...
dafelst. no backpeddling here! sreieter is the one that suggest Kron wouldn't tell you...I don't know if he would or he wouldn't or if yould learn it or not. I'm not saying that you should just drop by and train to learn it without the correct technique, that's rubbish....I actually tried to clarify my thoughts on this which is in agreement..doesn't seem like you all got my analogy...oh well...