Let's debate: how practical is Gi BJJ in MMA/fight

I saw the thread on TJ earlier...

Hes a blue belt

Of the other champions...

Holloway is a purple belt, Ortega is one of the most legit black belts we've ever seen in MMA

Khabib is a white belt, Tony is a 10th planet black belt, and Conor is a purple belt IIRC

Tyron is a brown belt, Colby is a white belt, as is Darren Till - although he is a purple belt in luta livre

Robert Whittaker is a brown belt, Kelvin is a 10th planet black belt, Adesanya is a blue belt IIRC, and Paulo Costa is a black belt

DC is apparently a brown belt, Jon is a blue belt, Gus is a purple belt

Different strokes for different folks, IMO.

For me, the gi really helped. Until I put on a gi, I just wrestled everybody. Against most purple belts and below, I would take them down, pin them, and hold them where they were. Top level guys would sweep me and beat me up. I didn’t really grow at jiujitsu.

The gi slowed things down and forced me to learn actual jiujitsu, and not just wrestle. I think guys like Frankie Edgar would say something similar (Frankie is a black belt under Almeida and trains in the gi at least once a week).

Not to quibble but MMA <> real fight

Gi ability doesn’t help much for MMA

Gi knowledge can be extremely helpful for a real fight

Choked72 - Not to quibble but MMA <> real fight

Gi ability doesn’t help much for MMA

Gi knowledge can be extremely helpful for a real fight

Granted, any good martial art trained well is very helpful for a real fight because most people don’t know how to fight.

When people ask me for the best self defense between BJJ, MT, boxing, wrestling, and MMA, I tell them it’s the one they are happy to train most consistently with the best coach.

Choked72 - Not to quibble but MMA <> real fight

Gi ability doesn’t help much for MMA

Gi knowledge can be extremely helpful for a real fight

I guess the better way to phrase it is against a trained opponent.

Your average one stripe white belt will easily fuck up your average Joe Schmoe. He'll trip him, pass into mount and rain down shots on his head.

RockTheVote - 

No gi trains the body

Gi trains the mind 

I'm far more of a bjj for mma coach, but I think the real value of wearing the gi is that the friction and grips slow the action down enough that your brain starts seeing and planning into the future much better than when you roll without one.

agreed 100%

wiggum -
RockTheVote - 

No gi trains the body

Gi trains the mind 

I'm far more of a bjj for mma coach, but I think the real value of wearing the gi is that the friction and grips slow the action down enough that your brain starts seeing and planning into the future much better than when you roll without one.

agreed 100%

I agree as well.

But MMA isn't BJJ, and BJJ grappling isn't MMA grappling. Maybe I'm off, but I think the best counter to a guy like Khabib isn't a pure BJJ guy - but rather an aggressive wrestler/submission wrestler.

Khabib may be a bjj white belt, but he spent years training in the kurtka (sambo uniform), and may attest to its value.

There are elements of gi bjj that probably won't help much in.a fight (spider guard, leg lasso, lapel guards of any kind), but it will help your escapes and defense. Of course it's best to train both in the gi and without.

The best part about Gi for MMA is submission and position escapes.  If you can get out of an armbar, ankle lock, back take or side control in a Gi you'll have a much easier time doing it without one.  

wiggum - Different strokes for different folks, IMO.

For me, the gi really helped. Until I put on a gi, I just wrestled everybody. Against most purple belts and below, I would take them down, pin them, and hold them where they were. Top level guys would sweep me and beat me up. I didn’t really grow at jiujitsu.

The gi slowed things down and forced me to learn actual jiujitsu, and not just wrestle. I think guys like Frankie Edgar would say something similar (Frankie is a black belt under Almeida and trains in the gi at least once a week).

Props for being open minded man

phil the void -

Khabib may be a bjj white belt, but he spent years training in the kurtka (sambo uniform), and may attest to its value.

There are elements of gi bjj that probably won't help much in.a fight (spider guard, leg lasso, lapel guards of any kind), but it will help your escapes and defense. Of course it's best to train both in the gi and without.

Rolls Gracie argued that a fighter should train all forms of grappling, Sambo, Luta Livre, Judo, Freestyle and Greco Roman. All were equally important and all could benefit a fighter in the long run.

notsobigmike - 
wiggum -
Choked72 - Not to quibble but MMA <> real fight

Gi ability doesn’t help much for MMA

Gi knowledge can be extremely helpful for a real fight

Granted, any good martial art trained well is very helpful for a real fight because most people don’t know how to fight.

When people ask me for the best self defense between BJJ, MT, boxing, wrestling, and MMA, I tell them it’s the one they are happy to train most consistently with the best coach.

TOTALLY agree with this.

In fact, I even expand it to TMA or even McDojo stuff.

If you're into it and will dedicate yourself to training - pretty much any art is better than going to the "best" school, but never training.

I always tell people who want to get into the martial arts - just visit a variety of places before you make a decision, and find the place that you WANT to keep going back to.

Agree - but what I’m getting at is using one’s clothes for grips, chokes and restraint in a fight. Can’t do it in MMA. Its an opportunity in a real physical fight.

Choked72 -
notsobigmike - 
wiggum -
Choked72 - Not to quibble but MMA <> real fight

Gi ability doesn’t help much for MMA

Gi knowledge can be extremely helpful for a real fight

Granted, any good martial art trained well is very helpful for a real fight because most people don’t know how to fight.

When people ask me for the best self defense between BJJ, MT, boxing, wrestling, and MMA, I tell them it’s the one they are happy to train most consistently with the best coach.

TOTALLY agree with this.

In fact, I even expand it to TMA or even McDojo stuff.

If you're into it and will dedicate yourself to training - pretty much any art is better than going to the "best" school, but never training.

I always tell people who want to get into the martial arts - just visit a variety of places before you make a decision, and find the place that you WANT to keep going back to.

Agree - but what I’m getting at is using one’s clothes for grips, chokes and restraint in a fight. Can’t do it in MMA. Its an opportunity in a real physical fight.

I’ll play devil’s advocate, is anyone’s clothing as tough as a gi?

Mine is pretty fucking durable, regular clothes rip, tear, break open easily. Unless you're opponent is wearing a heavy leather jacket, I wouldn't count on it being 'realistic' for a fight. 

John Danaher would argue the same point, the gi is designed for 16th century Japanese Samurai warfare. Not for the 21st century.

Roger Gracie said in an interview 80% of gi jiu-jitsu is useless in MMA. Hard to argue with him.

BigWilliam - Roger Gracie said in an interview 80% of gi jiu-jitsu is useless in MMA. Hard to argue with him.

Link?

Thats very interesting he would say that, he's arguably a top 3 BJJ fighter of all time, and certainly the best BJJ guy to have ever competed in MMA.

Think it also depends on type of grappled you are with the gi. Some are super gi depended. If that is you, won’t carry over well. Some are not. My game was very much the same with or without the gi. Small grip changes.

Think gi training is a completely different sport now compared to fighting

kungfugrip - Think it also depends on type of grappled you are with the gi. Some are super gi depended. If that is you, won't carry over well. Some are not. My game was very much the same with or without the gi. Small grip changes.

Think gi training is a completely different sport now compared to fighting

I think the original message of Gracie Jiu Jitsu was super effective in trying to win fights decisively.

The less diluted your gi training is, the more successful you'll be - like T City

Bump

Uhtred Ragnarson - 
Choked72 -
notsobigmike - 
wiggum -
Choked72 - Not to quibble but MMA <> real fight

Gi ability doesn’t help much for MMA

Gi knowledge can be extremely helpful for a real fight

Granted, any good martial art trained well is very helpful for a real fight because most people don’t know how to fight.

When people ask me for the best self defense between BJJ, MT, boxing, wrestling, and MMA, I tell them it’s the one they are happy to train most consistently with the best coach.

TOTALLY agree with this.

In fact, I even expand it to TMA or even McDojo stuff.

If you're into it and will dedicate yourself to training - pretty much any art is better than going to the "best" school, but never training.

I always tell people who want to get into the martial arts - just visit a variety of places before you make a decision, and find the place that you WANT to keep going back to.

Agree - but what I’m getting at is using one’s clothes for grips, chokes and restraint in a fight. Can’t do it in MMA. Its an opportunity in a real physical fight.

I’ll play devil’s advocate, is anyone’s clothing as tough as a gi?

Mine is pretty fucking durable, regular clothes rip, tear, break open easily. Unless you're opponent is wearing a heavy leather jacket, I wouldn't count on it being 'realistic' for a fight. 

John Danaher would argue the same point, the gi is designed for 16th century Japanese Samurai warfare. Not for the 21st century.

I agree that clothing isn’t as tough as a gi, but it doesn’t need to be:

  • winter, spring and fall jackets are tough enough for the vast majority of techniques

  • Collared shirts work for chokes, cuffs work for wrist restraints on long sleeved shirts

  • t shirts aren’t good for much (but if you know gi there are some things that work)