Sport BJJ has rapidly lost its effectiveness as a self defense art. The primary reason why is due to the scoring criteria in sport BJJ.
I propose creating a scoring system for sport that is more inline with self defense.
I want to be clear: I am not saying there is not value in sport BJJ. There is. Also, there are plenty of people who train in BJJ for reasons other than self defense.
BJJ is a wonderful art for its own sake, tons of fun and gives feedback immediately unlike many other arts. It is a fantastic workout, and causes less injuries than say boxing or wrestling.
Personally, my many broken bones come exclusively from takedowns (my first martial art was wrestling) and my increasing forgetfulness comes from too many strikes to the head. When I was training exclusively in BJJ something on my body always hurt, constant dings here and dings there.
I am in no way saying that BJJ is for pussies...it most certainly is not. It does, however, appeal to the smart guy/gal more than other arts and is relatively safe.
Training from the knees is a way to keep BJJ safe.
However my many broken bones came from takedowns, one came on the ground (in a tournament where I refused to tap and also won the match).
Also, when it comes to self defense it is still the best game in town. Even with all the misguided rules nothing comes close to it for ground fighting.
I am not proposing that we do away with sport BJJ. lets keep it for the people who enjoy it the way it is.
However, we need to step back from the self defense claim. I will explain why in my next post.
So a half hour hugfest?
TheDecider -So a half hour hugfest?
BRO THEY ARE WORKING FOR SUBS!!
(goes into another thread and mentions how much he hates wrestlefucking)
Just go with EBI Combat BJJ
The scoring system in sport BJJ has moved away from self defense. This move has been radical, and happened in less that 20 years.
The solution is simple: Change the scoring to reflect a real fight in a real scenario.
Here is what I propose: First, GET RID OF THE BUTT SCOOT!
I know we train how to stand up without getting head kicked, but why take the risk in the first place? There are so many reasons as to why I won't list all of them. You will probably get stomped if you pull guard in a self defense scenario.
The solution is simple: Reward takedowns and penalize pulling guard. 3 points for the takedown, minus one point for pulling guard.
Many of you will say "I pull guard in tourneys and day to day rolling, but I would not do so in a real fight." Sorry, but you WILL fight the way you train. And yes, you will have to learn how to wrestle.
A couple of weeks ago a blue chip MMA prospect, someone good enough to make it to the UFC lost his first professional fight due to pulling guard. This kid is a high level black belt, who beats other black belts in tourneys. He also has very good boxing (made it to the semis in the Golden Gloves).
Unfortunately for him, he does not consider wrestling to be a martial art. This kid has been training for 20 years (father is a very well respected martial artist) but has very poor takedowns. His dad calls wrestling 'rassling' and views it as something trailer trash engage in, not a worthwhile martial art.
The kid was in his first pro fight and faced a more experienced fighter who was also a golden gloves champ.
The stand up was even. On the ground it would not have been. Unfortunately, the Black Belt could not get the fight to the ground. He would trade strikes, and then shoot a double from 4 feet away without setting the shot up. He would get his shot stuffed, and then fall back into his guard.
He lost the fight.
I once had a conversation with a blue on the cusp of getting his purple. This guy teaches at a high risk high school and was having trouble with a student (wanted to fight him). I asked "what is your standup like, have you wrestled?
He said "no, but I will figure out a way to get the fight to the ground."
Sorry, no you won't. So, giving 3 points for the takedown should resolve this matter
Next, lets reward the knee on belly. The knee on belly is a FANTASTIC TOOL for self defense. You can monitor your surroundings and deliver strikes or just about any thing else.
Give 2 points for the knee on belly and them one more point is you get full amount.
Personally, in a self defense situation, I am going to simply stay in the knee on belly (I weigh 230 lbs) punch you in the face. monitor my surroundings, and punch you again. I have 360 degree abilities so I can see if your brother is coming up behind me.
I also have weapons 24/7 and knee on belly makes it easy to get my blade or gun.
SeanReed - Next, lets reward the knee on belly. The knee on belly is a FANTASTIC TOOL for self defense. You can monitor your surroundings and deliver strikes or just about any thing else.
Give 2 points for the knee on belly and them one more point is you get full amount.
Personally, in a self defense situation, I am going to simply stay in the knee on belly (I weigh 230 lbs) punch you in the face. monitor my surroundings, and punch you again. I have 360 degree abilities so I can see if your brother is coming up behind me.
I also have weapons 24/7 and knee on belly makes it easy to get my blade or gun.
Sam Pai?
Next, taking the back. I am not sure how many points you get for taking the back, but they should be many.
In a real fight I am going to punch you in the back of the head. Elbow's too. The rnc is down on the list a bit and I will only use it if I decide to be nice to you.
In a real self defense scenario taking you back pretty much means the fight is over, so score it accordingly.
Give it something like riding time. I someone stays on your back for a full minute the fight is over.
TheDecider -So a half hour hugfest?
If you catch a sub it does not matter how many points you are behind, you still win.
As a wrestler who does BJJ I hate competing and getting in on a takedown just to have them pull guard and not get awarded points. It's bullshit
theINFAMOUScarpe -As a wrestler who does BJJ I hate competing and getting in on a takedown just to have them pull guard and not get awarded points. It's bullshit
You need to work on transitions and body placement.
When executing a takedown you need to set up the landing so that you are already past his guard.
Doing so is hard if you are shooting a traditional double leg take down. If you are younger and athletic, set up the shot and clear the arms properly you should be able to get side control. I prefer outside single legs, arm drags, wizzer throws, DuMog. I also use some japanese JJ techniques. But 65% of my system is based in sport wrestling with a dirty subs that are illegal in sport BJJ.
When you secure a takedown your mindset should not be purely on the takedown. You need to tyrain enough wrestling so that muscle memory takes over.
Doing so will free you up to look for the sub during the take down transition.
For pure sport wrestlers, the goal is the takedown, they are not looking much beyond that. For BJJ guys the goal is the ground. Their fight plan does not focus on takedowns, or on the transitional opportunities during the takedown.
Look at the Camarillo brothers who are experts at transitions from Judo throws.
You have to train yourself to catch the first sub opportunity which almost always presents itself on the way down.
Here is the way I have always trained to achieve the above goals.
First, you need plenty of mat space. That rules out any classes with a large number of students. Also, many BJJ schools worry about the injury impact from takedowns. They are significant and could possibly harm your bottom line. That is way you have a 30 student BJJ class where everyone starts off the knees.
Have a smaller class for takedowns, with 2 people in at a time. Be aware of the fact that injuries are very possible, and limit the class accordingly. Require 6 months of transitional BJJ. After one person completes a takedown, give them 30 seconds on the mat to secure the submission.
Constantly rotate students in and out. Ideally the class will be taught by someone who is a legit wrestler with an understanding of BJJ.
Work on catching subs on your way down.
I probably should have placed this argument in the BJJ forum. Apologies.
It was many years ago, but the saying used to be "WRONG FORUM ASSHOLE"
Do they still do that (putting on flame suit)?
I don't know where your thread should be placed, but it appears you've put a lot of thought into it so the UG is definitely the wrong location.
SeanReed - The scoring system in sport BJJ has moved away from self defense. This move has been radical, and happened in less that 20 years.
The solution is simple: Change the scoring to reflect a real fight in a real scenario.
Here is what I propose: First, GET RID OF THE BUTT SCOOT!
I know we train how to stand up without getting head kicked, but why take the risk in the first place? There are so many reasons as to why I won't list all of them. You will probably get stomped if you pull guard in a self defense scenario.
The solution is simple: Reward takedowns and penalize pulling guard. 3 points for the takedown, minus one point for pulling guard.
Many of you will say "I pull guard in tourneys and day to day rolling, but I would not do so in a real fight." Sorry, but you WILL fight the way you train. And yes, you will have to learn how to wrestle.
A couple of weeks ago a blue chip MMA prospect, someone good enough to make it to the UFC lost his first professional fight due to pulling guard. This kid is a high level black belt, who beats other black belts in tourneys. He also has very good boxing (made it to the semis in the Golden Gloves).
Unfortunately for him, he does not consider wrestling to be a martial art. This kid has been training for 20 years (father is a very well respected martial artist) but has very poor takedowns. His dad calls wrestling 'rassling' and views it as something trailer trash engage in, not a worthwhile martial art.
The kid was in his first pro fight and faced a more experienced fighter who was also a golden gloves champ.
The stand up was even. On the ground it would not have been. Unfortunately, the Black Belt could not get the fight to the ground. He would trade strikes, and then shoot a double from 4 feet away without setting the shot up. He would get his shot stuffed, and then fall back into his guard.
He lost the fight.
I once had a conversation with a blue on the cusp of getting his purple. This guy teaches at a high risk high school and was having trouble with a student (wanted to fight him). I asked "what is your standup like, have you wrestled?
He said "no, but I will figure out a way to get the fight to the ground."
Sorry, no you won't. So, giving 3 points for the takedown should resolve this matter
In regards to the last part, a friend of mine trained at a Gracie Affiliate for years, I asked about how much they train take downs and he said "when have you ever been in a fight that didnt go to the ground", seemed like a little brainwashing going on there.
Train with strikes, or at least having strikes in mind. Changes the game. Sport is always gonna be sport. Let the guys that wanna worm'bolo do their thing.
So a guy that's skilled at bjj and has a good guard will get stomped out and lose against a guy on the street who doesn't train or even know what bjj is, butt scooting in a street fight?
I do believe takedowns need to be incororated a whole lot more and there definitely needs to be a lot less butt scooting. I'm going to start training judo pretty soon to make my grappling stand up more effcient. I wrestled in high school and was pretty good but I believe judo will make me more well-rounded by increasing my knowledge of movement, postioning, and overall technique.
To play devils advocate Ryan Hall completely control and even dominated Gray Maynard by pulling guard. Not only did he nullified any attacks throw at him while he was on the ground but also landed significant by pulling guards.
Gandhi - So a guy that's skilled at bjj and has a good guard will get stomped out and lose against a guy on the street who doesn't train or even know what bjj is, butt scooting in a street fight?
If you are asking "will a guy with lots of training beat a guy with no training in a fight", gee what an orginal concept.
Lets assume that training is the same. Then yes, you will greatly increase your chance of getting hurt very badly. Sitting on your ass takes away your ability to monitor your surroundings.
It also reduces your chance of running away. You have zero control over your opponent and zero ability to see behind you.
It you train proprly you will be free to run away. Not true on the ground.
Even if it is a one on one fight, if you are both similarly trained/untrained pulling guard is a monumentally foolish strategy. Taking a guy down instead of ass floping will put you in top control and or catch a sub on the way down.
Being on the top enables you to monitor your surrounds, punch, or submit.
I have done the getting up from the ground drill that has been around a long time. Sorry, but the guy still on the feet has a huge advantage. It is not as in class, where the top guy is not taking it to you with kicks.
Shaqtus -I do believe takedowns need to be incororated a whole lot more and there definitely needs to be a lot less butt scooting. I'm going to start training judo pretty soon to make my grappling stand up more effcient. I wrestled in high school and was pretty good but I believe judo will make me more well-rounded by increasing my knowledge of movement, postioning, and overall technique.
To play devils advocate Ryan Hall completely control and even dominated Gray Maynard by pulling guard. Not only did he nullified any attacks throw at him while he was on the ground but also landed significant by pulling guards.
There are no rules about soccer kicks/stomps to the head, groin, etc. In MMA the guy on the feet knows he will make enemies if he really takes it to you.
In no way does your example hold for the real world.