Let's revisit: Couture vs. Lesnar (UFC91)

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Bobby Loopz' great thread and the ensuing discussion on "who was the most dominant fighter on their best night" brought up the seemingly unstoppable frate trane Lesnar that brutalized Frank Mir at UFC 100. 

 

Lesnar's UFC100 performance is often referred to as this outstanding showing that is portrayed as unbeatable, brutal, and some would say the baddest man on the planet ever. The idea of the UFC100, peak, pre-diverticulitis Lesnar is one that will take any opponent down, establish position and pound the fuck out of them with his use lunchbox-cum-sledgehammer fists. Proponents of this idea maintain that Brock post-surgery was a shadow of his former self, with the Carwin, Cain, and Overeem performances all affirming this in their eyes.

 

Those who do not buy into it tell a different tale - referring to Frank Mir getting pounded out and floundering on the bottom for subs while his face gets abused against a number of guys being nothing out of the norm, and more a function of his own deficiencies rather than Lesnar being a demi-god in that night.

 

I decided to revisit Lesnar's fight with Couture at UFC91 to shed a bit more light on what level that Lesnar was actually on. You can view the fight here: http://m.au.ufc.com/media/ufc-91-lesnar-couture

 

Lesnar was 2-1 at the time of this fight, with wins over Herring and Min-Soo-Kim, and the loss to Mir. Lesnar opened as a slight dog (Lesnar +130; Couture -160) and the lines closed with him as a slight favourite (Lesnar -130, Couture +100). Couture's last two fights were the amazing comeback story of him toppling Sylvia for the UFC HW belt, and defending it impressively against Gonzaga.

 

Watching the fight (again, after a LONG time) I noticed a few things:

 

  • Randy, for the most part, controlled the clinch game. He was landing good shots from the clinch, for the most part had Brock carrying his weight.
  • However Brock had some nice knees in the clinch and on the breaks
  • Brock put Randy on his back twice in the first, and both times did minimal damage, not landing any strikes on the first TD and on the second landing two hammerfists. 
  • Brock seemed to have difficulty establishing position and was too hasty to advance - the first TD he passed to mount very quickly but Randy escaped as he did this. This is echoes the flaws in his top game against Cain and in the first Mir fight.
  • Brock was stuffed a couple times by Couture
  • Couture briefly took Brock down and nearly did again, a fence grab may have saved Brock here
 
  • Brock generally looked uncomfortable in the standup (as he always does)
  • Brock seemed to be tiring a bit and breathing heavy in the clinch in the second
  • Randy landed some solid shots which did not seem to phase Brock too much
  • Brock landed a nice elbow which wobbled Randy at the start of the second
 
  • The grazing 2 of a 1-2 that dropped Randy seemed awkward and the damage caused was more a function of Randy's head movement causing him to take the blow behind the ear
  • Randy ate a lot of shots before the ref stopped it, and was not out when the finish came
 
I think the notion of the pre-diverticulitis Lesnar frate trane somewhat overblown, and the deficiencies in Lesnar's game before surgery were similar to the ones after. In his top control he often failed to establish position properly, he was not as unstoppable at getting TDs as many play out and his GnP is not as devastating except for against guys who will not move and work to get up on the bottom. While the win over UFC 91 Couture was still an impressive performance, I think the steamrolling of Mir was more a function of a poor stylistic mismatch for Mir than Brock's devastating top game. 
 
What do you guys think? Would Brock have handled Cain in the TD department prior to his surgery and the UFC91 performance mainly due to a factor of Randy being a stellar Greco wrestler? Did Brock's ability to take punishment decline from before surgery to after? Or was it Brock coming up against tougher competition instead?
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lets file this under shit I already know...




but nice breakdown, yes brock was overhyped.

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Yes, many of us said this at the time, but the flood of fans attracted to Brock's WWE personality, UFC marketing, and paid shills here overwhelmed any sensible discussion of Brock's performances.

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holy shit at this picture and the size difference it shows, Brock literally looks like a giant

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Good analysis.

I took a lot of shit for similar posts way back when on Sherdog. Phone Post 3.0

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Brock's toe looks jacked in that picture.

And yes I think Brock is probably the most overhyped fighter in mma at that time, maybe ever. But he did accomplish a lot due to his size alone. Phone Post

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He also didn't react well to the punch that cut him vs Couture, a sign of things to come. Phone Post

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Sadyv - Yes, many of us said this at the time, but the flood of fans attracted to Brock's WWE personality, UFC marketing, and paid shills here overwhelmed any sensible discussion of Brock's performances.


This.



 



OP, you are right because you took time to make your point, but in my opinion, I don't understand the point.



I hated Brock fans and wanted Brock to lose because of their ignorance, but after it's all said and done, Brock had arguably the toughest first opponents for a hw mma fighter, or any division for that matter, and held his own.



 



I went from wishing he'd get beat brutally, to wishing he would have started his career much earlier(in mma).



 



I never gave him hype so I never thought he was hot shit. Matter of fact, this particular fight is the last time I ever bet on mma. I lost b/c i bet with my heart not my head.



 



Anyways, do more breakdowns, but preferably for a more recent fight. Good attempt though.

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Couture is so much more technical and experienced than Lesnar in the wrestling department and it showed. I'm a Brock fan, but Randy did a hell of a job. Phone Post 3.0

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Hey D241!

 

I am a newer fan and did not experience the career progression of a lot of fighter's as it happens. Lesnar is one of those guys. I suspect there are a LOT of other posters in the same position as me. Often they (and myself) will often piggyback on opinions rather than seek their own truth and understanding of how the game and fighters have developed. I wanted to revisit this fight to get some more exposure to pre-surgery Lesnar and be able to develop my own opinion better... When I saw the fight was actually available legitimately (for free!) I thought I'd share it.

 

The point of this is for me to help develop my own opinion (I was expecting inconsistencies in my breakdown or things I've missed to be pointed out by more knowledgable posters), fight knowledge and critical eye. In sharing it I felt I might be able to help some other newer fans do the same and maybe spark some discussion. My intention wasn't to bash Lesnar or discredit him :)

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"The grazing 2 of a 1-2 that dropped Randy seemed awkward and the damage caused was more a function of Randy's head movement causing him to take the blow behind the ear"

Probably, but had Randy moved the other way (or not moved at all, I guess) the punch would've landed flush and Randy likely would've been a lot worse off.

One thing that made it look kind of awkward was how Lesnar casted his punches.. and that was apparently a natural thing for him as his striking was kind of an afterthought.

Fedor was a master at casting his punches.. not comparing Fedor and Brock, he's just the best example I can think of for casting.. Either Diaz probably fits in here too.

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@Harmon, what do you mean by "casting" his punches in this context? I've only read the term being used in the context of the "sambo casting punch" i.e. a punch to engage into the clinch. Was Lesnar doing the same thing in the Randy finish?

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Brock casted his punches. Now I've heard it all. Phone Post

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Size alone folks, that's why Kongo is a 3 time world champ. Right? Because it was size alone that won those fights right?

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raags - 


@Harmon, what do you mean by "casting" his punches in this context? I've only read the term being used in the context of the "sambo casting punch" i.e. a punch to engage into the clinch. Was Lesnar doing the same thing in the Randy finish?



Erm, yes and no.. the punch was thrown toward a target and changes course as its target moves.. If it doesn't land, he'll find himself in a clinch.



Look at his arms immediately after his right hand lands; they're searching for an over/under.



 



@AlbertEinsein, I'm not saying he was some master striker (he wasn't), just something he naturally did, imo.

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raags -

Hey D241!

 

I am a newer fan and did not experience the career progression of a lot of fighter's as it happens. Lesnar is one of those guys. I suspect there are a LOT of other posters in the same position as me. Often they (and myself) will often piggyback on opinions rather than seek their own truth and understanding of how the game and fighters have developed. I wanted to revisit this fight to get some more exposure to pre-surgery Lesnar and be able to develop my own opinion better... When I saw the fight was actually available legitimately (for free!) I thought I'd share it.

 

The point of this is for me to help develop my own opinion (I was expecting inconsistencies in my breakdown or things I've missed to be pointed out by more knowledgable posters), fight knowledge and critical eye. In sharing it I felt I might be able to help some other newer fans do the same and maybe spark some discussion. My intention wasn't to bash Lesnar or discredit him :)

your name is awesome dude seriously.love it. Phone Post

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ender852 - 


when most people talk about pre-illness brock i think they mean the mir 2 strawberry patch fight



You think Brock evolved his game leaps and bounds between the Couture and Mir fights?

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Well that's awesome raags. You're smarter than I am in terms of an mma fan.

What you did would be like me looking up pancrase fights and breaking them down and trying to get opinions of that, so looking at in the perspective you gave me, I applaud you.

You can make threads like this of any old fight you have questions about if the intent is how you described it to me. Of course you can make any thread you want, but you catch my drift.

I guess you're opinion is spot on and I didn't understand why you were questioning it.

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ender852 - 
raags -
ender852 - 

when most people talk about pre-illness brock i think they mean the mir 2 strawberry patch fight


You think Brock evolved his game leaps and bounds between the Couture and Mir fights?

He certainly looked a lot more impressive Phone Post



you don't think it was just a stylistically better matchup? I think Mir made it pretty obvious that he was wanting the fight on the ground because he thought he could submit him again. I'm not trying to say that Brock didn't look more impressive, I just think it was situation where styles make fights.