What benefit's do you get from lifting fast rather
than slow? One of the commandments on the "10
commandments of lifting" thread was too lift fast. The
guy who wrote out my weight's program for me told me
to lift slow. I think it is harder to lift slowly .
Would it not be better for strength to lift slowly
with total control?
You can't olympic lift slowly.
The only time you'll see an athlete not move explosively is in slow motion.
Control and moving slow are two different things.
weights don't hit back
Here's my thoughts. I could be wrong.
Lifting fast is better for strength, you're training your nervous system to lift quickly, which makes it get stronger faster. You don't want to go too fast so that you only feel the pain in your joints. For instance, if you're curling too fast, you might feel pain in your elbows.
Lifting slow is better for hypertrophy (growth), but you don't want to lift too slow. You don't want to be going so slow that your supporting muscles give out before the main group that you're trying to work. Again, in the curling example, if you're lifting too slowly, your forearms might give out without giving you much of a bicep workout.
I'll be interested to see if I'm right.
Try to lift technically clean with strong body tension. You will lift rather slow, but not superslow. There is no reason in thinking about "how fast" when training for max strength, just focus on the tension. And never ever use momentum.
And olympic lifting is a specific sports activity, it's not the same thing as strengthtraining.
For athletical/ strength gains faster is better. Nothing in any sport is done slowly.
When you want to go strong you work on getting faster also. Getting faster will help you move bigger weights in the end.
For growth dont' go super slow. Just go at a 'moderate' pace. Going too slow is crap and complete BS imo.
What do you want to 'achieve' with your routine? Do you want to be bigger and 'lean' right?
Well don't lift 'slow'. Lift at a moderate pace.
Koing
lol ttt for lifting fast.
Thanks for all the response's. I donot know as much
as you guy's but for the guy's who think you have to
lift fast check out this site : strongerathlete.com.
Go to the faq section. Here is an excerpt :
"Why do you not advocate Olympic lifts?" For decades now many coaches link "explosiveness" with quick lifts, similar to those performed by Olympic lifters. Understanding the popularity of the traditional styles and having done and coached Olympic lifts ourselves, what we have found is that:
Momentum generated by these lifts takes tension off the muscle which in turn makes recruiting type IIb, (or "fast twitch"), muscle fibers inefficient.
The Principle of Specificity rejects the idea that lifts such as the power clean transfer to sport specific skills such as tackling or throwing a shot put.
Quick, momentum generating lifts can be unsafe in the short term if not coached and supervised and in the long term in regards to the low back and wrist regions.
"Don't you know that Power=Work/Time?" Understand that we have the same understanding of Power as you. Power=Work/Time. Where others misunderstand our point is when we maintain that Work/Time is showing, or expressing, how much Power one has at that moment. Keep in mind we are in the weight room to develop not express. Expression of power is for the field of competition, not training. To further illustrate this point we need to break the formula down even farther. So, if Work=Strength*Distance then Power=Strength*Distance/Time. If we can increase the Strength element we can thus increase the Power output. We simply feel that it is safer to develop Strength in the weight room.
Also the guy who did my program out for me is one of
the strongest people I have ever rolled with and has
never lifted fast. He like that site tells me that
squatting fast simply means you can squat fast.
Strength training is general , skill training is
specific. Lifting quick demonstrates explosiveness but
does not build it.
Jeremy Hamilton : why the lol?
"Lifting quick demonstrates explosiveness but does not build it."
I may be wrong, but isnt that like saying that lifting heavy demonstrates strength, but does not build it?
I personally noticed a big difference in functional strength for mma when I started doing alot more fast, explosive training rather that just slow controlled lifting. The injury risk goes up but so do the benefits.
I suggest that Heang Koing and Tony Montanas friend compare their verticals.
I personaly believe it's possible to develop power by lifting quickly, and that the increased power will transer to similar athletic movements.
"Quick, momentum generating lifts can be unsafe in the short term if not coached and supervised and in the long term in regards to the low back and wrist regions."
So dropping a DB on your foot is also unsafe right?
Anything that you do 'badly or 'wrong' is bad. So that is an invalid thing imo. I can do back summesaults but are they dangerous? Hell yeah if you don't do it properly.
If you lift 'properly' you won't have any lower back or wrist problems. I can GURANTEE that if you lift 'properly' in anything you will be 'fine'. But if you lift 'wrong' or 'badly' even a BP you will knacker your back and wrists. It is as simple as that.
"Momentum generated by these lifts takes tension off the muscle which in turn makes recruiting type IIb, (or "fast twitch"), muscle fibers inefficient"
That is true but that is also why we 'squat'.
You also do 'squats' for strength. It is hard to generate absolute strength when your moving very fast. But you can't tell me your not strong or explosive if you can Clean 100kg+? No way are you going to cheat curl that unless your well over 100kg+.
Strong on 'weights' does not equate to 'strong on the mat'. You should know that. I'm sure you have schooled many people who lifted much more then you. Why? You had better fight awareness/ experience/ technique etc.
"He like that site tells me that squatting fast simply means you can squat fast. Strength training is general , skill training is specific. Lifting quick demonstrates explosiveness but does not build it."
Well if that is his point why do any weight training AT ALL? You do get carry over. Every Rugby player of any calibre will Power Clean. This will help them tackle and run better especially when breaking through tackles.
Your last comment does not make sense. If you lift quick you are explosive and you can build it. Otherwise you would never improve.
You don't just Olympic Lift. You also do 'strength' assistance exercises like Squats. They are slower and build strength. You don't squat slow (5+ count etc). You go down at a 'moderate' pace and go up 'fast' as you can.
When you mean 'slow' how slow do you do it?
IMO you should be fast as possible. Nothing in an athletic sport is generally slow. When you roll you don't do it slowly. You go fast for a take down. Very explosive.
It is up to you what you want to do but I know that training fast is the way to go. Not fast so when you squat you CRASH to the bottom of it or when you BP you drop the bar on to your chest and bounce it back up. Controlled on the down part (eccentric) and fast on the up (concentric part).
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ph.chea/135cm_jump.mov
Not many people can do that from a stand still.
Koing
lol @ xennova
I've tried it in the past and it can give you a serious workout. If I'm not mistaken, it was first advocated by Ken Hutchens (one of the Nautilus founders??) when he tried it on elderly women suffering from osteoporosis. According to him, it worked wonders with them and there are several top atheletes who supposedly use it.
If I remember correctly, Hutchens claims that moving fast leads to injuries too much of the time, and that 'time under load' is a critical aspect of building muscle. It's an easy workout, 'cause you only do one exercise until failure. He claims that doing anything after that doesn't accomplish anything in the way of growth.
The problem with it for most of the people here is that it's similar to HIT in that it's suggested that you only workout once per week or so 'cause you've taxed the muscles so much. Don't think that mixes well with training for MMA so much.
But I think the bottom line for Hutches was that the faster you move the greater the risk of injury.
"So dropping a DB on your foot is also unsafe right?"
Yes , but why would anyone do that? Is there a correct
way to drop a DB on your foot? I don't think that is
a good example. You lift fast on purpose , dropping a
DB would be an accident.
"It is hard to generate absolute strength when your moving very fast. But you can't tell me your not strong or explosive if you can Clean 100kg+? No way are you going to cheat curl that unless your well over 100kg+."
No I wouldn't tell you that you are not strong or
explosive if you can do that. It is a good DISPLAY of
strength, but, is it the best way to BUILD strength?
If you are "cheating" at all is that not inhibiting
the building of strength?
" Strong on 'weights' does not equate to 'strong on the mat'. You should know that. I'm sure you have schooled many people who lifted much more then you. Why? You had better fight awareness/ experience/ technique etc."
Agreed. However when the technique starts to come
through that extra power will be noticed.
"Well if that is his point why do any weight training AT ALL? You do get carry over."
The point was never that you don't get carry over.
You do. The point was that you don't get any extra
carry over from lifting fast.
"When you mean 'slow' how slow do you do it?"
Lower it at about 3 seconds and come up in 2.
I am very new to this , so you undoubtedly know more
than I do , but the way my training partner and that
site explains it, make sense to me. I appreciate all
the comments.
HeangKoing: is that you in the video? That's awesome!
An example of what is meant by sport's specific is
one he related to me about balance. A personal trainer
was telling him about the benefits of an exercise
ball. One of the things the trainer told him it could
improve was balance. He argued that it could only
improve your balance on the ball. Having good balance
as a boxer does not mean you could step on a skate
board and do tricks, without practice. Same with
strength. Just because you are strong and can squat
fast does not mean you can shoot a double leg takedown
fast. Weight train to increase your strength and then
drill the techniques so you can focus the power.
The problem with lifting weights very fast is that
eventually you are THROWING the weight, not
lifting it and I don't think that benefits you.
Yeah it is me in the video.
"The point was never that you don't get carry over. You do. The point was that you don't get any extra carry over from lifting fast."
What? Of course you get extra carry over when lifting fast. If you never train to be fast you won't be fast. Do you train to punch or do a move slow? No. You train to do it fast with PROPER TECHNIQUE. It is all focused on 'proper technique'. If you do something with proper technique you are FINE. If you do it with BAD TECHNIQUE then well that is NOT GOOD.
The DB example was just an example that if you do something wrong or your not suppose to bad things and accidents can happen. If you do a Clean badly (wrong technique) yes you can get injured. But if you do it properly you won't get injured.
"Lower it at about 3 seconds and come up in 2"
Well I wouldn't call that 'slow'. Slow would be about 5secs on the way up or 4 maybe? That is just about moderate pace. But when I train assistance exercise it is 'moderate' speed on the down and fast as possible on the up. Why? You can shift bigger weights this way and I'm about athletic performance. I don't care if my shoulders get bigger from doing it a bit slower.
I personally don't think an exercise ball is that great but that is another case...
Anyone that can Clean well or Power Clean I can probably bet on with a solid leg take down. I'll take a big guess that they will have good co-ordination and will be able to do it fast. A take down isn't exactly rocket science but I've played 6yrs of Rugby so I do it more often then most.
"Weight train to increase your strength and then drill the techniques so you can focus the power."
No one has said other wise.
"but, is it the best way to BUILD strength?"
What type of strength do you want to build? There are different types of strength; endurance, explosive, isometric (static) etc.
If you want a better Bench Press, then bench press and do some assistance exercises on that. Doing curls won't help your BP much. Doing more dips will help your BP. Doing chins won't really help you squats. Doing PC will make you faster, jump higher and be more explosive with your hip movements.
If you want to be complete work everything. But if you don't do anything explosive I would say your missing something. If someone doesn't train to be explosive I can't see how they will be explosive apart from their skill training. If they did they would be faster with it.
Koing
I've done way more damage to myself doing doing bench press and deadlifts than o-lifting.
"For growth dont' go super slow. Just go at a 'moderate' pace. Going too slow is crap and complete BS imo."
I train with hypertrophy in mind. Most lifts I do fast but controlled. It's on the negative where I purposely slow down, usually for a 4 count, less on the higher reps when I'm tiring. Is this gonna work against my explosiveness and speed, if the negative is slow?