Lifting slow vs lifting fast

Not really shovelhook.

When I squat I go 'moderate' on the way down.  Some people GO WAY too fast on the way down and catch the bounce to get up.  I just go moderate and 'controlled'.  But always fast on the way up.

Slow on the lowering part is fine.

Shouldn't have too much of a negative against your explosive speed.  If your working the 'contracting' / lifting part fast you are fine.

For hypertrophy shorter rest periods is KEY no longer then 60seconds rest inbetween sets.  Keep the intensity up.

Koing

Don't listen to anyone advocating slow lifting as the best method for developing maximum strength (it is fine for developing size, preventing injury and developing a reasonable amount of strength). However, there is simply no evidence supporting this method as being a superior form of pure strength training. Have you ever seen a powerlifter, weightlifter or strongman doing super slow lifts on a regular basis? Probably not. The best way to learn about strength development is to study the top strength athletes and strength coaches. The average guy touting super slow or other less effective training methods are not champions but typically are pretty boys with decent builds but not much else (this of course is a general rule and there may be a handful of exceptions).

good thread

"What? Of course you get extra carry over when lifting fast. If you never train to be fast you won't be fast. Do you train to punch or do a move slow? "

Lifting fast in weights does not correlate to faster
punching power. They aren't even the same movements.
Other than sports involving lifting weights there is
no sport's movement done with a barbell. Therefore I
think this "no sport is done in slow motion" arguement
fall's on it's face. A particular movement in a sport
is specific to that sport. Going fast in an any
exercise is not going to increase your punching speed.
You need to work on punching technique to do that no
weight exercise is going to help it.

"But when I train assistance exercise it is 'moderate' speed on the down and fast as possible on the up. Why? You can shift bigger weights this way and I'm about athletic performance."

So the speed help's you lift more weight. It helps
your athletic performance in lifting weights. If you
are using speed to help you "cheat" then how can this
help you grow stronger than actually lifting the
weight without throwing it up?

To quote strongerathlete.com again:"Momentum generated by these lifts takes tension off the muscle which in turn makes recruiting type IIb, (or "fast twitch"), muscle fibers inefficient.

The Principle of Specificity rejects the idea that lifts such as the power clean transfer to sport specific skills such as tackling or throwing a shot put."

Strength training is general, no weight exercise is
going to directly transfer to a sport technique other
than weight lifting.

You need to work on punching technique to do that no weight exercise is going to help it.

Strength training is general, no weight exercise is going to directly transfer to a sport technique other than weight lifting.

I think most people here would disagree.  Certainly if all you do is bench in order to punch harder, you can't expect to see much improvement.  But strenth training with weights in combination with drills are a time proven method of performance enhancement.

"Lifting fast in weights does not correlate to faster punching power. They aren't even the same movements. Other than sports involving lifting weights there is no sport's movement done with a barbell. Therefore I think this "no sport is done in slow motion" arguement fall's on it's face. A particular movement in a sport is specific to that sport. Going fast in an any exercise is not going to increase your punching speed. You need to work on punching technique to do that no weight exercise is going to help it."

Well imo it does.  If you work speed and strength training and punching technique you will punch faster and harder then if you did no strength and speed work.

You can't be serious with that comment.  Of course your going to hit harder and faster if you learn to do some Cleans, pull ups and some ab work etc.

Yes it is sport specific but has carry over.  Why do all shot putters, discus throwers and hammer throwers do OLy type of lifts?  SIMPLE because it WILL INCREASE YOUR POWER.  I bet a shot putter could punch hard as hell.  They throw a 4.5kg or whatever shot put over 20m.  Now if he throws a punch at you and hits is that not going to be 'hard'?  I'm sure he would hit EVEN harder if he spent some time doing technique on his punch.

"So the speed help's you lift more weight. It helps your athletic performance in lifting weights. If you are using speed to help you "cheat" then how can this help you grow stronger than actually lifting the weight without throwing it up?"

I'm not using speed to cheat.  I 'created' this speed.  When I squat I go down at a moderate pace.  Then I try to come up as fast as possible.  I DO NOT BOUNCE OFF THE BOTTOM.  I just go down and come up.  So do you SQUAT SLOWLY then?

I'd like anyone to squat slow and jump on to those stack of weights I did.  I gurantee your 'strength' would get you up their.

You are cheating nothing.  Your just loading your muscle and forcing them to work against heavier loads.  You try to go fast but you won't when the weight is heavy.  But I would never tell anyone to squat up slowly for say a 4 count on the way up.

"To quote strongerathlete.com again:"Momentum generated by these lifts takes tension off the muscle which in turn makes recruiting type IIb, (or "fast twitch"), muscle fibers inefficient."

Yes so that is WHY you squat and do strengthening exercises.

 


"The Principle of Specificity rejects the idea that lifts such as the power clean transfer to sport specific skills such as tackling or throwing a shot put."

Yes but the 'power' will transfer a hell of a lot to shot put and tackling.  WHY do Rugby players do Cleans and same with Shot puters? 

Why do NFL players do the same?  Can't be because it will help them do this?  Same with runners?  Why do they do PC to help them run faster? 

Of course they do their own technique but it will allow them to perform better with the power they learn inthe Oly movements.Any 'half decent' strength & conditioning coach would know this and get his or her athletes to do so for power type events.

"Strength training is general, no weight exercise is going to directly transfer to a sport technique other than weight lifting."

Not directly but their WILL BE SOME CARRY OVER.  Why else do all these sports people do Oly type of movements?  If you do the Cleans you will learn how to increase your power and get better hip drive.  This will help you to be more explosive, jump better, punch and kick better, run faster, tackle better.

You can't say for a leg take down the bending of your knees then driving in 'hard' and 'fast' some what mimicks the angles you do in the squat and Oly movements?

I know what works and this works.  You can keep reading the site and beleive that training slow is the way to help you in the ring.Side note do you know much 'momentum' it takes to PC 'only' 220lbs?  I'd say a hell of a lot and you can't just create this momentum easily.  You MAKE the bar move that fast.  If you can't you obviously can't shift it.

You also need to keep working on your skill work, drills and technique also.

Koing

Btw, I define punching power as being able to KO a skilled opponent, not how hard one can "Ivan Drago" a heavy bag.

What you're talking about has A LOT more to do with than just power.  Being able to KO an opponent takes MANY finely developed attributes of which, power (the amount of force you can generate with your fist) is only one; speed, timing, technique, etc. are also key to KOing someone.  You can generate enough power to light up Toledo, but if you don't have the timing to hit someone you'll never KO them.

The discussion here is about whether strength training will increase your power in a given movement.  Certainly if you want to increase punching power you wouldn't wanna concentrate on swimming.  But to say that NO weight lifting type movements that can be done with the arms, chest, and back, DONE IN CONJUNCTION WITH PUNCHING DRILLS will increase your power flies in the face of decades of sport training.  And I know that some top boxers lift 'cause I saw a site by a coach for Evander Holyfield that detailed his workout, and lifting was a part of it.

I believe punching power is genetic and cannot be developed significantly.

You're talking about world-class punching power.  Certainly the average Joe can inprove his own punching power by using any number of different methods.

All this stuff about rugby players doing olympic lifting is anecdotal, theres absolutely no evidence it transfers into any sport specific environemnt. Of course the muscles built whilst weight lifting will aid in any sport requiring power. After all, the larger a muscle group is, the greater its potential strength.

But trying to equate the ability to do olympic lifts with the ability to hit hard, tackle or run fast, without any supporting evidence is far fetched.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol12/bell.htm

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol12/bloomfie.htm

Punching power does not equal boxing skill.

Weights don't hit back!!

Here is what I got from Zatsiorsky's "Science and practice of Strength training":

It takes some time to archive max power, about 0.4 seconds. So one second upwards-lifting isn't of much use in getting more strength. Up to a certain level max strength translates to explosive strength, the power you can archive in a shorter time frame. The more your max strength is developed, the less you get from increasing max strength for dynamic movements and you have to learn to use more of your max strenght in explosive strength. But this depends strongly on the mass you are moving. It makes sense to do plyometrics for your shoulders now so you can get your fist harder into the opponent. But for the ability to shove your opponent to the sides of the octagon, training for max strength is still the way to go. Slowly, but not superslow.

While he doesn't give details Pavel mentions in PttP studies that show tha second rate powerlifters do their lifts pretty fast but the top guys slowly increase their tension and do their movements in a slow and controlled manner.

Pavel almost constantly makes references to studies he doesn't source.

Westside Barbell has a dynamic effort day built into their program and they're some of the most successful powerlifters in competition.

That's said, I think think the transfer of increased neural drive from either slow or fast lifting is sort of up in the air. Nobody really knows and some successfully athletes do both, some do neither. It may not even matter much.

I think body comp is the most important issue to nail down, then experiment with cycles of max-effort and ballistic lifting as long as it doesn't get it he way of skill training.

Great discussion.

It appears that lifting fast is not only a display of strength, but is also the best way to develop more strength; so whether your goal is to throw a hammer farther, sprint faster, or increase your bench press over the long term, fast on the concentric is the way to go.

As far as boxing goes, unless there is a big strength deficit, lifting weights will do very little to increase punching power. Not just "able to hit a talented opponent hard" punching power, but lifting weights also WON'T improve your ability to "Ivan Drago" a heavy bag very much.

How would lifting apply to hammer throwing but wouldn't apply to boxing?

ttt

Most throwing/lifting sports are trained by learning to best use your strength (i.e. developing technique) on your particular event. The more your strength increases through lifting, the more potential power you will have available to apply to a task.

One thing you'll notice after you've been boxing for awhile and your technique is consistent is that your punches don't really get harder when you put more effort into them strength-wise; punching really "hard" doesn't make you hit with more force. It's like a man won't be able to crack a bullwhip any harder as he gets stronger, unless he was so weak that he could hardly flick the bullwhip at all. When trying to develop punching power, you are not so much trying to learn to better apply strength as you are simply improving the technique and body leverage/positioning. Maybe an easier way to understand it is that with a punch, you are not forcefully pushing your hand or your target; you are flicking or snapping your fist at your target.

Where strength does come into the picture somewhat is with cardio and muscular endurance: since you must snap the punch out many, many times in a fight, if you get tired you will get sloppy and not maintain proper balance and position, which in turn makes your punches less hard.

But then that sort of reasoning always begs the question as to why heavyweights hit harder than lightweights? Im not having a go at you urquhart, and i honestly dont have a satisfactory answer myself, but the reasoning behind why hypertrophy wont improve performance in sports like boxing always seems wanting to me.

Bigger people hit harder because they are bigger.  Bigger muscle mass.  Naturally a bigger and 'equally' skilled Pro boxer will hit harder.  Won't find many smaller guys hit harder then a top end boxer.  Same with any weight category sport.  Bigger muscles will be stronger then a smaller one with everything else being equal.  This doesn't mean a Pro BB will be the strongest man ever.  Just that you have to 'maximise' strength for what you want to do and train it.

"All this stuff about rugby players doing olympic lifting is anecdotal, theres absolutely no evidence it transfers into any sport specific environemnt. Of course the muscles built whilst weight lifting will aid in any sport requiring power. After all, the larger a muscle group is, the greater its potential strength."

You said it yourself on your 2nd and 3rd sentence. They do some PC because it helps to get the muscles big and to use whole body movements.  This in turn will help them out.  No one has said it specifically will help.  But imo it will help you rugby tackle harder simply because it is very similar in motion.  Other sports less so but you get the strength and body movements to go with the PC and OL type of exercises.

Koing

 

but the reasoning behind why hypertrophy wont improve performance in sports like boxing always seems wanting to me.

Would Roy Jones beat Lennox Lewis?

How would James Toney do against Vitaly Kitschko?

Being a blown up middleweight doesn't give you the punching power or ability to take a punch of a true heavyweight. Guys like Lennox and Vitaly have a naturally larger frame than a Roy Jones who fought at 156 in the 1988 Olympics, and bulked up to 193 for his lone HWY fight.

Roy was only able to beat Ruiz because of his extreme boxing skill, not because he lifted weights. Unless you are blessed with supreme athletic talent, moving up in weight is a bad idea. Hypertrophy will put you in the ring with someone naturally bigger and stronger, if everything else is equal, you'll be in for a long night.