I'm sorry you disagree with me, but regardless it is indeed the truth. Yes, a lot of schools train that way and that is precisely the problem.

Stand up in MMA is pretty low, especially in the UFC. Chuck Lidell was a god until Randy Couture took him down a few knots recently, primarily because Randy showed a TRUE integration of his skills. As I said, I've had a few UFC athletes in this gym, there are holes in their games big enough to drive a truck through.

There aren't a million San Shou people out there but the few that have stepped into MMA events have all done well. Maybe you just aren't aware of it

who are they? not being argumentative, but i've never heard the words san shou mentioned at all in any ufc broadcast.

shonie carter i'm sure is one, am i right?

lkfmdc, all i'm trying to ask is what happens when you get a student who is good at a few things and AWFUL in one, how do you bring up to par in his weak area? isn't it sometimes better to immerse yourself in say, boxing, get all you can from that, and then consider the other aspects of the fight?

"Could you give a few examples of these types of drills?" Since you have had me obsessed with San Shou/San da for close to a year now, I am interested in that myself. What I have been doing ( most likely wrong ) is working the focus mitts. I will strike to set up shooting or body locks. Or think of those things as strikes in and of themselves.

A number of members of Brazil's national San Shou team (a top 5 team in world competiton BTW) have competed in the IVC. On one night in 1998 they had three guys on vs three BJJ guys, they all won by KO that I remember. James Franshier was an amateur US champion and is 5-1 last time I looked in KOTC. I was just down in Ohio and some of Coleman's guys were training stand up with Scott Sheeley. The Russian who won the amateur world cup was the guy who spin kicked Overeem at Pride, lost but did well. The guy who beat Cung Le in Hong Kong in 1999 was 6-0 in RINGS. Lke a million years ago a third tier US san shou guy fought Ken Shamrock and even though he was very low on the US feeding chain (and the US is not that high internationally) Shamrock had a lot of trouble taking him down.

Different San Shou athletes have different areas of strenght, some punch better, some kick better, some wrestle better, but they all have basic proficiency in ALL areas if they are top level. Unlike a lot of so called MMA guys who are really one dimmensional

ttt for ideas on integration

I am going to try and keep a good thread going here without becoming argumentative. I am not speaking for lkfmdc but, I will chime in on the "what makes an MMA fighter" debate.

I would assert in regards to cross training, that the "90% of MMA schools that train that way" teach students various skills without bridging the gaps between each skill.

We really should not be looking at the Coutures and Lidells of the MMA scene as examples (or at least people to compare ourselves to) because these are high level guys who have nothing to do but train all day. Of course they will be somewhat integrated and trained well.

What I think of is the average guy who has no intention of becoming pro...the average guy who trains for love of an art, self defense, or ameture competition. Many schools I have visited - regardless of orientation (though JKD schools are guilty of this) - will have classes in this or that and never show the student how to adapt one to the other in a practical way that makes sense. MMA is more than cross training. It is cross training, adapting, and integrating.

For example...let's say a student at an MMA school takes classes in muy thai, western boxing, freestyle wrestling, and jujitsu. He may have good skills in each and may do well in some competitions. But when push comes to shove, this student may not be able to effectively transition between his jab/cross/hook, throw attempt, reversal in the event his opponent resists (which he will), another takedown or strike attempt, land in a dominant position on the ground after the throw, and so on. It is not a matter of knowing skill a, b, or c. It is a matter of transitional space between a, b, and c. The only way to achieve this is by practicing them together in the same class...not seperately.

Regarding San Shou and offense here...they are two different animals and can't really be compared. San Shou fighters are not MMA fighters. The reverse is equally true. They both have much to offer the other if the time is taken to integrate them well.



Pancrase isn't an integrated system, it's pro wrestling. As for Shooto, you think it hasn't made a mark in MMA? What a joke, who are you kidding? Shooto has trained some of the best in the world and has made a huge mark in MMA. Teams that are hugely successful like MFS indeed integrate.

If you haven't trained in San Shou, you have no idea the differences. As I said, it openned the eyes of the people that have come in here.

lkfmdc, i see your points, but a team like mfs has a lot of different individuals who were good at one aspect at the game and then just decided to add more of a complete game. hughes was a wrestler, pulver was a wrestler, laverne clark was a boxer, miletich wrestled and kickboxed (separately, of course).

what i'm trying to say is that adding it all together is a goal to be reached for, but before that you need to master certain elements first. for hughes it was his wrestling. he gained a lot of technique and attributes THEN went to learn striking.

brazilian top team is another example, it's jsut they were all bjj guys. team quest trained in greco and gained proficiency BEFORE they added the other stuff.

dave menne is an awesome fighter, and has a ton of heart, and is very well rounded. but maybe he doesn't really excel at any one thing. when a fighter like baroni, whose strength is his striking, fights menne...well you see what happens.

it's hard to learn everything all at once.

OneScoup, you're an idiot. Sorry, but have to be blunt. Get a clue who the hell you are talking to. Name another gym in the US where every weekend they are winning in a different sport, as different as boxing and submission grappling. I have trained champions in everything from boxing to western kickboxing, to Muay Thai, to San Shou, to San Da to Grappling. And as I have said, I have had UFC people in this gym, some people here called "good" at stand up. You want to stay nice and comfortable believing what you are doing is correct, but some day if you ever train with the right people they'll show you all those holes. But have fun living in your castle in teh air

do you hear what i am trying to say, lkfmdc....i am not being disrespectful, just want to try to understand...

Y A W NOneScoup, it skipped my mind, who are you and what are you accomplishments? Oh, yes, I remember, you're NO ONENo, go run and play in the traffic, your nonsense annoys me....

I just laugh my ass off at the haters, my very existance upsets you all so much. It's f-in amusing. I've had weekends where half my team is doing grappling, the half Muay Thai, or half is doing San Da and half is doing boxing, just this weekend. I've trained champions in all of the above. I have a world champion and 7 national champions. Training in my facility kicks ass and anyone who has ever been here can tell you that, but you want to blah blah your ass off...

Unfortunately, the only style being discussed on this thread now is mud wrestling.

If I can shoot past all the feather rustling, I would like to comment on OneScoup's position that "If you have 1 instructor in 1 art who you're relying on for training in all aspects of fighting you will have huge holes in your game".

For the most part, I agree with this. No one person knows everything and can never know everything. Training is a journey that never stops. Anyone who says they everything is full of crap. Likewise, anyone who discourages cross-training is, in my opinion, also misguided. There is always something to be learned from someone else. My earlier comments about integration were not meant to assert that every teacher should know everything. My notion was that a good teacher should encourage cross-training but, have the ability to work towards exploring the middle ground between approaches. How can we bring these systems together in a meaningful way? This is why the choice of who one will primarily train with is so important. Unfortunately, for the average guy, this does not happen often. It is left up to the student to try and piece together different things he or she has learned. In my combat sambo classes for example (I don't claim to be an MMA teacher) I encourage students (many of whom cross-train) to bring in what they have learned and work on it from the perspective of "how does it fit into Sambpo?" "How do we bridge these gaps?"

KS also makes a good point when he states "what i'm trying to say is that adding it all together is a goal to be reached for, but before that you need to master certain elements first".

I agree...when people cross-train (in the jack of all trades sense), they often lose focus or are confused by differing approaches being learned simultaneously. It is often better to "master" one system - one that feels natural to you as an individual - and add new elements later on. I personally never "cross-trained" many systems at once. I have spent approximately six singular years studying the various arts I have trained in. Typically, with each new art, I would struggle with a re-education and how do I temporarily forget what I have learned, focus on the new stuff, and then integrate the old and new later. For me, this method has worked very well.



there are no haters here, i am only trying to understand and discuss.

"lkfmdc, all i'm trying to ask is what happens when you get a student who is good at a few things and AWFUL in one, how do you bring up to par in his weak area? isn't it sometimes better to immerse yourself in say, boxing, get all you can from that, and then consider the other aspects of the fight?"

i repeat the question.....

it seems like the one area where people neglect the most is boxing. including myself....i was just thinking why not go to a boxing gym, learn basic movement, leverage on shots, KEEPING YOUR HANDS UP, stance, shift of weight, then adjust it when you include everything.

sambosteve, AWESOME POST. thanks for sharing your insights.

"my very existance upsets you all so much. It's f-in amusing."

I started out agreeing with you and enjoying this thread but now I can't help but comment.

The truth, which you won't be able to face, is that you are very unlikeable and have a personality that is exceptionally abrasive.

You're probably going to think the same thing all abrasive people think, that you are unliked because you "tell it like it is". But that is not the truth, the truth is you're just a little man with a sour disposition. I truly feel sorry for you, you must have great difficulty in life dealing with people.

ttt-good point canuck34.

I love the internet, if someone talks crap but agrees with you they're great, if they point out you're wrong they are "abrasive"

I am extremely successful in life, I have a very successful gym, many close students who I call friends, and of course a PILE of champions. I am very confident in what I do and the results speak for themselves.

You can go on hiding your heads in the sand, it doesn't effect me at all.

--- KS, I'd love to answer your questions some time but I really find the atmosphere here not condusive, if you don't bow down to idiots like OneScoup then you get attacked. ---

Competing in San Shou has helped improve my stand up game alot. I've stopped competing in MMA for the time beging.