id pick toney over the overrated kiltsko
Well, Tommy, you, too, would be wrong... :)
I suppose that everyone then thinks that Jirov is the second best heavy
out there then???
Let's not forget that Jirov gave Toney all he could handle, until he wore
out/got knocked down. Toney is nice, yes, but Klitchko is a bad match
up for him.
It will be much harder to lay on the ropes, slip, and counter-punch on
a guy that's firing from twice the distance that Holyfield, or 3 times the
distance that Jirov fights at.
Anyone who says Toney got his ass beat in the RJJ fight probably has not watched it.Even when they show RJJ highlights they avoid clips of that fight except for the famous knockdown where Toney was taunting and got caught.He looked a little silly but was not hurt.They will never really show anyother clip from that fight.I'm not saying Toney even won the fight, but saying he got dominated is absurd.
TONEY FOR PREZ.
HOMEY FOR VP
I have the RJJ-Toney fight on tape and both of you Toney fans need to watch it again rather than offering us a revisionist account that has nothing to do with fact. You don't have to knock out your opponent or hurt him badly to dominate him. What you have to do is hit him, over and over again, with clean shots, and not be hit back. RJJ did that all night long to James Toney. Toney couldn't handle his handspeed and movement.
Do either you of you recall the judges' scorecards? How many times did Toney land a clean shot during that entire fight? Just for the record, I think that Toney is a terrific fighter and may be a force in the heavyweight division. But both of you seem to have very selective memories when it comes to Toney's fight against RJJ. RJJ gave him a boxing lesson and Toney couldn't adapt. Then he blamed his manager for the loss, rather than himself, and threatened to kill her. He is all class...
Hey ugh otter, I have the fight as well.Toney's down fall was trying to play RJJ's game and taunt and act cocky.That is when when RJJ landed pattering combos.At times they looked impressive but Toney landed plenty of clean shots.Admittingly RJJ did what he does best and took Toney out of his game during portions of the fight.So in that way I got to give it to ya that has to be considered dominance in some form.However he did not just go in there and dominate the entire fight.There were times when Toney was effectively countering RJJ exagerated counters.(not a typo, yes I said countering his counters)I love RJJ and I think he won the fight.Toney however is a much smarter fihter than he was then and would not let pride bring him out of his gameplan.The point of the argument to begin with is to say Toney has the ability to stand with the best fighters of all time.He is elite and in this weak Hvwt div. he is the shining star!
The facr is Toney's not near as effective if his opponent doesn't come straight at him. RJ didn't and clearly outclassed him. No reason to believe it would be any different in a rematch.
Question: do you think the real Joe Frazier watched the film, looked at Toney, and said, "Dear God, was I ever that fat in my prime?"
I'm glad that Toney is around, especially with the dearth of talent in the heavyweight division. But I don't think that we learned that much from his KO victory over a very, very over-the-hill Evander Holyfield.
Homie, Evander was still in his prime when he fought Bowe... that makes all of the difference in the world.
When John Buckley was on this forum, he said that Toney used to talk a lot of trash while sparring but that he learned a lot from him.
But slick, Jirov is hardly fleet-footed, and that fight could of easily been
Jirov's until the last round or two.
Hmm, since Toney is apparently the best heavy out there, and Jirov/
Toney went to the wire...
Maybe Mesi IS the real deal???
I tend to lean more towards the fact that Holyfield is done.
"But slick, Jirov is hardly fleet-footed, and that fight could of easily been Jirov's until the last round or two."
Jirov/Toney is a totally different kind of fight. Jirov through over 1000 punches in that fight to Toney's 800. If Vitali tries to keep that kind of pace they'll carry him out of the ring exhausted inside of 6 rounds.
Klit has every physical advantage, Toney has the mental and skill advantage. Very interesting fight imo.
Homie, I won't speculate on RJJ and Toney's private lives... It's really none of our business :)
Slick, do you think that Toney has the power to KO Vitali? Do you think that he can avoid big shots in a twelve round fight? I just don't see a 36 (36?) year-old Toney --who is known for not staying in shape-- winning by decision or KO.
Did anyone see Dave "TNT" Tibeiri (sp.?) against Toney in 1991 or 1992? I think that they fought at 147 lbs.. Toney won a gift decision.
Even a fat Toney would win the war of attrition with Vitali, who looks like a specimen but is trying to suck air through every open orifice by the end of rnd 1
To answer otter yes Toney has the power to ko Vitali.Maybe not one punch power but he has never been hit with the clean powerful combos that Toney would be able to deliver when he got close.
I think that Toney might have a much more difficult time getting inside than you imagine. At any rate, I would like to see it. Much more than any fight involving John Ruiz or Chris Byrd.
We have analyzed the RJJ TOney fight to death, and must of us agree on the outcome so lets move on.More on his chances in the Hvwt div.
Slick, if I remember correctly, Tiberi was out on his feet during the first round but Toney couldn't finish him. After that, Toney had nothing left. Good point: if Toney doesn't have to make weight, he won't come into the ring depleted.
Ron, toney-tiberi was at 160. Toney was KILLED from making weight and basically laid on the ropes and picked his spots after badly hurting Tiberi before the bell ended the first. It's like going into a battle with limited ammo, and he got hit a lot but with no-power punches.
He was much better at 168, but when he was trained proper at 160 he was a quick, talented, and bad mofo. His fights with McCallum were masterful and remember, Reggie Johnson in 1991 was a very quick, slick southpaw.
I'm surprised anybody would pick Toney over Vitali. Toney lacks footspeed these days and Vitali would simply jab-cross him silly. Jirov and Holy went right after James and played into his traps. Vitali would hammer him -- harder than he's ever been hit, even in the LA gym wars against Lamon Brewster and Co. -- and Toney can't hurt him.
Might be an ugly fight, but Vitali has little to worry about from Toney. He's just too big and strong.
Vitali is not too strong for anyone.For one Vitali does'nt hit that hard for his size.Two, I don't think he would land very many clean power shots.I think his jab could possibly pose a problem but Toney will get inside and his footwork is much better than Vitali's.Vitali will try to be cautious because of Toney's superior hand speed but eventually Toney will get inside where he will eat him alive.
Believing Toney would beat Vitali is not based on Toney beating Holyfield.The man has had a great career.He has had his ups and downs, has struggled with weight and other things.He srill however is a future hall of famer already.His holyfield win in my eyes was expected.If you think picking him over Vitali
is based on the Holyfield win you are probably like many others who had barely even heard of Toney until he moved to Hvwt, because he was not a media darling, and you don't follow boxing close enough.Thats what you sound like GREENWOOD, when you are so quick to throw out the name calling without even first making any valid points.
Toney's conditioning is not that suspect.Even when he is chubby his wind is usually pretty decent.Vitali conditioning IMO is suspect.He looks very conditioned but he gets tired even fighting at the cautious tempo in which he fights.Toney fights at a much more agressive pace and Vitali can not keep up.
Vitali winces at every punch thrown at him.There were times when Byrd's punches looked like they hurt him.He will definetly feel Toney!