MA History Q & A

sreiter... if your screen name was simply "reiter", well, that's another term for a 16th century German mercenary cavalryman ("ritter")!

Anyway, Ye Lunatic made a good point about cultural pride and the effect it can have on things like martial arts history. I personally like Amante P. Marinas Sr's take on things in his book, "Pananandata Yantok at Daga: Filipino Stick and Dagger"-- "There is no doubt that Spanish sword and dagger fighting techniques greatly influenced the development of the Phillipine yantok at daga. This is quite obvious. Phillipine and Spanish warriors fought running battles for most of the 350 years of Spanish colonization. Techniques were exchanged during fights to the death. Of course, techniques could have been acquired also through stealth by both sides."

It is particularly relevant that Marinas spoke of Spanish "sword and dagger" as opposed to rapier and dagger. Also as Ye Lunatic mentioned, the type of sword (espada) being used by the conquistadors in the 16th century was a stout, double-edged, cut-and-thrust weapon, about 3 feet long, with a complex handguard like later swept-hilt rapiers. The later, longer, thinner cup-hilt that the Spanish made so famous did not come about until the following century, and was more popular in civilian circles anyway. A few Filipino or Phillipine-trained authors, like Marinas and Mark Wiley, are willing to admit that there was probably a strong Spanish influence on Filipino MA, and that the Spanish did not simply routinely have their asses handed to them over and over by the locals. Wiley even mentioned how, in the 1570's, the Spaniards and Filipinos actually worked together in order to defeat the Sino-Japanese pirates of Lim-Ah-Hong and Sioco.

Other authors on Filipino MA have often dismissed the Spanish influence, and have instead stressed how the conquistadors, after suffering several defeats, "came back with firearms"--though these writers never indicate that 16th century matchlocks were of little use in the Phillipine jungles, as it required some 30 steps to load and fire one round.

Also, sreiter, I am curious as to what influence the English had on Spanish swordfighting skills--in fact, I would also like to inquire about the supposed Italian and French influences. The Spanish method of the so-called "mysterious circle", with the cup-hilt rapier, was to be used by the Spanish at least through the 18th century, when the rest of Europe had long given up rapiers in favor of the smallsword. Eventually, the cup-hilt rapier disappeared in Spain too, to be replaced by French foil and epee fencing and Italian/Hungarian saber technique--but this was at a time when fencing became purely a sporting endeavor, fairly far removed from its martial origins. The English retained some practical aspects with their singlestick fencing traditions, but I'm personally unaware of the Spanish doing singlestick, per se. Do you know something I don't? I am very curious now.

Great debate indeed, fellas!

And here's a short list of Spanish terms in Filipino MA:

Arnis de Mano, Esgrima, baston, bolo, doce tero, mano-mano, medio, ocho-ocho, punyo, riterada, espada y daga, & estoque. There are others...

Okay, guys, how about this one...

What battlefield grappling art(s) were used by the samurai of old? Hint: jujutsu is not part of the answer; I'm looking for pre-17th century arts.

Even though I've asked the next question, feel free to continue on the Filipino MA or staff vs sword debate. ALSO--if anyone else has any cool questions, then post 'em! We already had one regarding just who taught Bruce Lee how to use the 'chucks... so let's keep it going!

Even though I've already asked the next question, please feel free to continue the Filipino MA/staff vs sword debate too.

Also, if anyone else has any cool questions to stump us, post 'em! We've already had one on who taught Bruce Lee how to use the 'chucks--let's have some more!

Please pardon the duplicate message above...

Was sumai (forerunner of sumo) used by the samurai?

Sir, please join the debate!

That's one of the two arts I know of, IBI. Do you know the other one?

KENWINGJITSU,

yes, single stick on the DB vids "won" out (no trophies were given) vs many diverse weapons, but of course most of the time, the single stick wielder was Eric Knaus. his wins could also be that he was that much more skilled with single stick than his opponent with their chosen weapon.

i know the whip wielder was pretty skilled though (Tom Meadows).

yawara? Or is that just jujutsu?

Yeah, I read JAMA.

Kumi Uchi was the other old grappling art of the samurai. It was specifically meant for armored opponents and was the forerunner of Jiu Jitsu.


sreiter..."the blade beat the gun in the jungle"

As TFS mentioned, 16th century matchlocks were of litle use in the jungle. The black powder was susceptible to humidity and they took a loooong time to load.

"lunitic - i'm just saying that some you make points for spain being so superior, and i was mearly pointing out historical reference arent always non-bias"

It is true, many historical references are bias, but if you are referring to Magellan's 50 men, it is well documentened as to how many men he had aboard his ship. I believe that by the time his crew made it back to Spain (after circumnavigating the globe) there were 18 left out of an original 237. As for the filipino warriors, I doubt the estimates of 5000, the most conservative are at around 1000.

ttt

Mark Wiley was mentioned as someone who gives a balanced view of the Filipino arts and he edited the book I mentioned above, "Arnis: Reflections and Traditions of the Development of the Filipino Martial Arts". I agree that there's a Spanish influence on the Filipino arts, I just don't think that the Spanish names of Filipino arts = Spanish superiority. There is romanticization of the Filipino arts like there is in any other martial art, unfortunately. TrueFightScholar-- I agree with your point and your list of Spanish terms in Filipino martial arts is great, but it merits mention that a lot of those words are of Spanish origin but they're corruptions of the original and wouldn't make much sense to a Spaniard today :) You probably know that Arnis de mano came from "arnes de mano", or armor of the hands, for example. Nobody else found my Musashi/Jose Rizal stuff interesting? Oh well. :(

ttt

i know how fast threads can disappear

heading home with reading material

Do the Dog Brothers have an art that is historic or are they reinventing as they go?

Stickgrappler: "yes, single stick on the DB vids "won" out (no trophies were given) vs many diverse weapons, but of course most of the time, the single stick wielder was Eric Knaus. his wins could also be that he was that much more skilled with single stick than his opponent with their chosen weapon."

Can you give your opinion on what you believe is the best weapon all other thing being equal.

hackett,

i'm printing this and reading on train ride home. it's too long to read at work. good stuff!!

sdumas,

it really is hard to say, because there are so many factors involved, one or other fighter (presupposing a gentlemanly fight between 2 opponents) could have an off day but normally would be better than other, environment where the fight takes place (classic JKD example - do not take a staff into a phonebooth for a fight or the other classic example, don't kick while on ice), weapon breakage, fighting a freak who feels no pain even when a limb is broken, etc.

"best" is so relative as you can see. but hypotehetically speaking, if all things are equal, i think either spear or long pole would pose a real challenge. not sure if your question was specifically meant as single stick vs. ??? or just king of all weapons. of course, this discussion is presupposing non-projectile weapons such as repeating crossbow, longbow, .45, 9mm, uzi, MP5, etc. and pertaining to trad. MA weapons. sword is good too, but vs. spear-wielder who maintains his range, sword is in for a tough time.

with single stick, work on your footwork, if it's a long weapon you are facing, work on your closing skills to corto range, if it's a short weapon, stay at largo range and pick him apart with your stick combos.

bottom line, it's not the weapon (or style) but the fighter. if the fighter is good, he makes the style/system tough. granted a good style/system helps, but if the fighter is not properly trained, the style/system is naught. e.g. i'm not professional racecar driver, if you gave me a porsche or ferrari, i will not drive is as well as the pro. we all know the porsche/ferrari is better than a ford tempo or dodge k car. i'm sure you get my point.

with regard to DBMA - i'm pretty sure their system is continually evolving. 1st case in point, when they started their minimal armor real contact stickfighting, they discovered grappling happens even in stickfighting. Guro Crafty Dog (Marc Denny) was one of the first to integrate Machado JJ to his stickfighting to come up with some stickgrappling moves. some of the others just clinched and literally rolled on ground not knowing what to do, avoiding getting hit by stick at largo range. Guro Crafty with integration of Machado JJ has made stickgrappling an advanced skill (NOTE: i'm just a beginner in stickwork and grappling).

2nd case in point, the DB stickgrappling prior to training with Dr. Gyi of ABA Bando was mostly ILK and maybe PT. after training with Dr. Gyi, they have a better understanding of what to do while stickgrappling.

3rd case in point: Guro Crafty, head instructor of DBMA used to approach standing stickgrappling one way. after training with Rico Chapparelli, he has a better understanding of the standing stickgrapple range. he invited Rico to teach at the DBMA Camp last year, sadly i could not go :-(

check out Ashley Bass' site and click photos and text link. he has an archive of the DB techniques. in one of them you will see the triangle choke. Ashley Bass' link is on my FMA page:

http://go.to/stickgrappler

i think i'm starting to ramble. long day. HTH. any q's, post away. i recognize sreiter from ED, so he is better qualified to speak of FMA than me.

ttt

hey stickfighter-
thanks for the nod :)
ED = escrima digest. marc and eric knauss did incorporate bjj into their (semi)Real stickfighting. however i wouldnt call it stickgrappling at that point. they used one move that marc misnamed the fang choke (the fang is something completely different in FMA terms). other than that, they pretty much just did bjj on the ground. dan inosanto actually shows stick grappling, from takedowns to various chokes to arm and leg bars to controling uses. marc was present at some of these classes and i think he has incorporated them into the dbma system (which is just a hodge podge of techs marc learnt from various sources and throw together for the most point.) he also has worked with several BB's to get their take on what would be a bjj answer to certain situations on the ground against a (stick) armed indiviual - one problem though is the non-leathal nature of the grappling - even with minimum protection on the head - it still is way different than with no head gear - when you change the game and subsitute a edged weapon, all that stuff goes out the window - while dan does teach grappliing against a knife (silat does too - a karumbit is nasty) this is a last ditch, save your life scenerio - not something you want to do. i'd like to point out as well that in DBMA grappling occurs because the armor allows you to - and the lack of skill of the fighters - i'm not saying the fighters arent skilled, however if you/they were to try to close on someone like GT gaje, dan inosanto, punong guro edgar (RIP)- they wouldnt get close - even at eric's level (which is very good) - it's tough for people to get close enough to him to grapple - i cant recall seeing people get in on him - they might have - i dont recall - i recall eric taking others down - (he is a high level purple)