I also see BJJ going through a great evolutionary change these past few years. I guess the change has both it's pro's and con's but personally I prefer the old school Gracie Jiujitsu vs. modern sport BJJ.
Obviously only a year training with Maeda, Carlos would have learnt basic ne-waza poistions and subs.
Probably similar to todays Kosen Judo.
From there I guess the Gracies took what they had and ran with it, filling in the gaps with their own innovations - such as emphasising the defensive possibilties of the guard position.
Also adding things from their own fighting experinces and things borrowed from other arts.
Such as Rolls picking up wrestling from and American wrestling coach (mentioned in 'The Gracie Way' book) and a Carlos Snr. student finding the triangle choke in an old Judo book.
The result being Gracie JJ.
To me Judo is to Jiu Jitsu, what Sport BJJ is to Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
"Probably similar to todays Kosen Judo. "
Kosen is a set of rules of competition, not a different type of Judo. It's all Kodokan Judo.
Ben Reinhardt
But their focus is different.
So by that I mean Carlos was probably taught similar techniques to what the kosen guys spend their time training. Rather than a wide variety of throwing techniques.
You could argue that Sport BJJ and Olyimpic Judo are both rules of competition - its all Kodokan Judo/Jui jitsu.
Its their focus that separates them.
Opash: So is Eddie Bravo's Jujitsu a different art than Say, Renzo Gracies Jujitsu?
Pure speculation on your part, I seriously doubt what Carlos learned was any sort of Kosen.
Carlos was better at throws then Helio.
This was clearly demostrated in the Gracie history video ( a video that made in Japan that had very old footage of both Helio and Carlos).
Carlos was clearly a better athlete than Helio and essentially had a style of fighting built around his athletism. The one thing he seemed to be good at was throws (at least in relation to Helio). The video show Carlos sparring. He seemed to build the fight from standing.
Anyway to say that Carlos was mostly a groundfighting guy because of what we see in Helio is wrong. Carlos seem to be the more well-rounded of the two as well as the more athletic.
MG: I thought the same, Carlos seemed to be a Judo guy.
Of course its speculation.
But as Maeda was a guy known for fighting many challenges and using a lot of groundwork and had an Jiu Jitsu/Judo background.
Is it unreasonable to speculate that the techniques he used (and taught) would have looked similar to wha the Kosen guys are doing now?
Considering they have a very similar background.
I never suggested that Carlos learned Kosen nor that he couldn't throw, just that the techniques/style/ emphasis may have been very similar.
Re: Bravo and Royler (although I guess it was a rhetorical question).
Having never trained with either, I am not in the best place to comment. But, from what I have seen of their fights.
Yes, they have different Jiu Jitsu - not a different art, but a very different style.
Opash: Regarding Jujitsu, then what's the difference between? I was speaking of Renzo vs Bravo. I think that the difference between the two is about as much as Kodokan Judo vs BJJ.
I would agree with that statement.
ttt
Let me recind a bit.
A better example would be Rorion/Royce JJ vs Bravo's JJ.
Necromancy