Maximum Effieciency/Minimum Effort

It is a little disturbing to see people arguing that retaliatory massacres exemplify the spirit of Judo.

see people arguing that retaliatory massacres exemplify the spirit of Judo. Could you get more melodramatic?

Scy & Comedian, What is disturbing is what is disturbing to you on this topic. The thread title was a spring board.

Bull, Tony, Nelson, Josh, Sakalov & Ben are cognizant of what is going down in the world. I feel good about that.

"Could you get more melodramatic?"

If you call for a city full of thousands of people to be made into a "parking lot" in retaliation for an atrocity, you're calling for a revenge massacre.

Of course, maybe the people saying this don't mean it, and are just venting their outrage. It's one thing to talk blithely about slaughtering people, and another thing to really believe in it.

But if you mean it, have the courage of your convictions. Admit that you believe in revenge killings as public policy. Don't try to pretty it up, and say that those who call a massacre by its rightful name are "melodramatic."

And please, don't invoke the prinicples of Judo as your inspiration.

lol @ this guy trying to tell me how horrible war is. Have you ever fired an M-16? A grenade? Ever been exposed to a gas chamber? (on purpose?)btw: Did you bother to read my first post? Did you happen to notice that I said I was opposed to the US forces in Iraq? Maybe in your rhetoric-charged idealism you missed that..You don't succeed with a half-assed tai otoshi and you do not succeed with a half-assed occupation of a country. In both you must act with speed, strength and FOCUS . Lingering on after an attempt will only get you countered..

Actually, since you brought it up, you're the one using rhetoric-charged language. As you probably know, you're using a device known as "euphemism," saying that you believe in "acting with speed, strength and FOCUS" when what you really mean is "the best way to crush resistance to military occupation is to kill so many civilians that the local population is scared shitless."

I'm just calling a spade a spade. And saying that _if_ you really believe in such things (perhaps due to your experience firing M-16's), and are not simply venting your anger, why not be honest and admit it?

Personally, I don't care if you believe that or not. Neither of us is in a position to influence US policy in Iraq, and your opinions are none of my business, really. But I thought I'd speak up on this subject because I don't like to see such ideas equated with the philosophy of Judo on a public forum.

Scy, What is the philosophy of judo and how does it jive with terrorism, fanaticism and oppression?

I think the spirit of Judo is diametrically opposed to those things, Osaekomi. In fact, I agree with you that Judo is ultimately an art of war, and that it is perfectly in keeping with "jita kyoei" to oppose terrorism, fanaticism and oppression, and perfectly in keeping with "seiryoku zenyo" to seek to do so in the most efficient way.

I suppose what I disagree with is the idea that revenge massacres are a Judo-like response to fanaticism and terrorism. I understand the outrage and anger that prompts one to consider such a response, but I think part of Judo is learning to cool down, to avoid reacting to an attack with blind aggression and lust for revenge. As we all know from randori and shiai, those emotions are dangerous -- they make you less efficient, more vulnerable to mistakes, and they also make it impossible to pursue "jita kyoei."

In in the long term, is killing the population of Fallujah likely to settle things down in Iraq or make things much, much worse? And isn't it a pretty horrific act in its own right? Not "mutual welfare," but "screw your welfare, here's mine."

I can't help thinking there must be a better way. Maybe I'm naive enough to think that considering things from a Judo perspective can help us see it. I suspect the US Army agrees with me, as I haven't heard mention of any plans to carpet-bomb Fallujah.

Yeah, the Marines are waiting a bit. The Marine commander has been quoted as stating they will track them down and kill them. I think you will be surprised at the ferocity of the reprisal in store for the Suni triangle.

I'll tell ya what though Scy the terrorists and all those countries that shelter and sponsor them, covertly, would nuke us right out of existence if they held the big stick and not us. They can never be allowed to get the big stick and we are going to have to address that sooner or later. We cannot keep dicking around like we are. I strongly believe the Islamic terrorists are never going to stop until they are wiped out or they wipe us out.

Like tonyinnewcastle states at the top of this page this is a worldwide mess, it really is a world war of a different color. Check out the backlash in Europe, even in liberal countries, against fundalmental Islam.
Its happening. The USA cannot sit on its hands. The whole Irag deal blows but it is something we have to handle and handle expeditiously.

Well, now we're talking about causes and long-term strategies, and that's a huge mess of issues.

I agree that the US has got itself into a mess that it now has to get out of. It created Al-Qaeda because it wanted to screw the Russians in Afghanistan. It helped create Saddam Hussein because it wanted to screw the jihadis in Iran. But then it helped create Iran by propping up the former dictator, the Shah.

So, the US has dug itself pretty thoroughly into the mess it's now in, and I suppose you're right that it has to try to find a way out before the mushroom cloud rises over the Potomac. Such are the prices and perils of global empire in the nuclear age, I guess. I just wish people would talk about it all honestly and openly, and say, "Hey, we really painted ourselves into a bad corner here... it's not going to be pretty or cheap getting ourselves out, but what choice do we have?"

Of course, many people feel the US is just digging itself in deeper with the whole Iraq business. I guess we'll know in about five years whether or not that's true.

im staying out of this debate.

though.. my personal ideas on it are that cruise missles sure do seem like kano's invention of military force-- maximum efficency, minimum effort.

"my personal ideas on it are that cruise missles sure do seem like kano's invention of military force-- maximum efficency, minimum effort."


Although reasoning by analogy is always dangerous... I'm sure those terrorist fucks could just as easily say that "terrorism uses the spirit of judo because it allows a smaller weaker oppenent to defeat a larger, stronger, faster advesary."

I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT AT ALL, but it typifies how rhetoric and analogy can be used to make faulty arguements.

This thread has ABSOLUTELY no business on this
forum, and it is only creating rifts between people
who were previously able to talk about JUDO
without the political crap that's all over the OG. The
moderators have dropped the ball on this big time,
in my opinion.

The principle of "mutual welfare for all" is being
shit all over with this ridiculous episode.


hey, i have been watching this thread and before it is moved or frozen, i employ everyone to be responsible..

i am not for censorship, even if i completely disagree with the opinions expressed by some posters...

i AM warning all involved that if this denegrates into name calling or personal attacks i WILL employ "maximum efficiency with minimum effort" and wipe this thread off of here...

once again, i strongly suggest that this stuff go elsewhere...we are onto a good team here with our judo information and the like and i hope that continues...


Nuke it then.

Wayland and Standaman, define the parameters of what is acceptable to you on this judo/sambo forum. If someone doesn't like a topic then stay off the thread.
Maximum Efficiency/Minimum Effort most certain pertains to judo, aye? Maybe not in the context of what is comfortable to some but non-the-less of topic.

I feel this forum is informative, entertaining and often has an edge unlike any other judo forum. If some threads aren't the mom & pop variety that is good because most definitely is not PG rated in any way, shape or form. I say leave the thread to those that wish to partake in the discussion whether or not it complies with everyone's sensibilities or core beliefs as to what is acceptable or not. Not everyone has the same sacred cows.

As to name calling and personal attacks there has been none whatsoever on page 2, therefore the discussion is evolving favorably in that regard.

ViewType, "You fucktards can sit on it and rotate". I like that, good spirit. "Fucktards" is a new one, lol.


My view is that your thread from the beginning was
about pushing a political agenda/position. You
made no attempt to place it in the context of judo
other than the thread title.

Let me state that I am not arguing against your
opinion nor your right to say it. I am saying that this
is not the appropriate place to discuss it. The OG
is tailor made for this type of topic. Why bring it
here and corrupt/disrupt this forum?

As a novice judoka, I revel in a forum free from the
OG bullshit where I can get advice and information
ON JUDO from players such as yourself with years
of experience. I don't think that I am in the minority
in that feeling either.

Please, don't force this issue and create
permanent divisions on this great resource that we
have here. If you have to talk politics, take it to the
OG like everyone else does.

Thank you,


Stan, the problem I have with the OG is that there are too many idiots. I respect what the judo/sambo forum members have to say. I can go along with the "disrupt" part but not the "corrupt" as you opine and certainly neither was my intent. I appreciated the responses.

I have found over the years that one of the characteristics of this forum is that like a snake it fascinates.

Hey guys, let's let it rest on this one. I think that everything that can be reasonably said has been said.

Ben Reinhardt

Sorry Ben, I have one more thing to add

"Grambo, Military a tool of rich Elite? Like Kerry is not Elite. Heinz Ketchup anyone...4 million shares eh? One of the 4 Warriors that were mutilated spent time in Afganistan prior to getting out and volunteering for a private company to protect forces in Iraq! He believed in this cause, and put his life on the the line. He had a family too. He seen first hand what he was fighting for. And he continued to the end.God Bless him and all who DO, while you sit and ponder on Pie in the sky ideas. We live in a JUNGLE! Western Civilization is in the balance. You are either Predetor or Prey! Make your choice America!"

Tonyinnewcastle, I will not argue with, or even reply to you after this post, because your weak command of the English language and God bless those who take part in war comment makes it obvious that you support my previously mentioned hypothesis.

Do you really think God would bless those whom set out to kill men, because they don't think similarly?

"while you sit and ponder on Pie in the sky ideas."

nice try.