Good job mods.
As an explaination, I have no problem with serious debate, but when the name calling starts, I start deleting.
Ben R.
Nuke Iraq!! :)
I think about our fighting forces over there all the time. I hope they stay safe, kick ass and are all able to come home and enjoy their great country soon. Same for all the warriors from other countries that are putting their asses on the line with us.
Its a beautiful day today in SE MI, 60 and sunny. I put the stars & stripes out, hit the deck with my CDs, grill, brews and bad ass hamburgers. It is Easter break at the schools and kids are running around playing, including my 7 year old daughter, looking all happy, etc. Freakin' great country and all the young dudes and dolls laying their lives on the line in fuckin' Irag and other hell holes are making it all possible, always have, always will. Bad asses.
HEY CHANCE, BLOW ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
American pie: In my neighborhood if Pam Anderson was walking around the hood all the dudes would be dashing to the bathrooms to catch a jack whereas in the middle-east the dudes would stone her to death then pluck out their eyes for offending them. LMAO!! But if they died from the plucking out their eyes they would get to spend eternity with virgins!! HAHA, assholes.
I just ate two awesome cheeseburgers so don't give my indigestion.
BTW, Maximum Efficiency/Minimum Effort is strategy not philosphy. Combat strategy whether at a personal level or battalion level has nothing to do with ideology.
I only briefed through this thread.
I just wanted to point out that going into Iraq was stupid in the first place.
The 9/11 guys came from Saudi, not Iraq. Go after Saudi.
Iraq does not have a lot of Sunni Muslims, but obviously they will try to get their regime back. (Iraq has a lot of Shiite Muslims, the same type as Iran.) So the US must be ready and should have much better intelligence. I am with BIC. These half-assed jobs are the problem. Either go in and be the boss or don't go in at all (my stand, as Saudi is the much much more obvious target unless one is afraid of the oil $$$). If oil traded freely, prices would be so much lower now that problems there wouldn't matter anyway.
Islam can actually be a beautiful religion, but just as with the Catholic priests who have marred Catholicism, too many Islamic clerics aren't being tolerant.
Thats right Sothy any religion that is backward and from the dark ages should not affect any government, anywhere in the world, no matter what religion it is.
You are right about the Saudis and Iranians also IMO.
----The Ayatollah of Rock & Rollah
mutual welfare and benefit. judo is not aggressive.
The us invasion of iraq has got nothing to do with judo. you sound like you just don't like arabs so why not call the thread "I hate arabs" then there would be no confusion.
"Maximum Efficiency/Minimum Effort is strategy not philosphy."
Maybe someone fluent in Japanese can correct me on this, but my understanding is that "seiryoku zenyo," literally translated, means something like "best use of life energy."
I've always thought of that as having broader implications than simple efficiency. But maybe I'm mistakenly reading the English moral connotation of "best" into the Japanese.
Iran is actually starting to show slightly more religious reform last I checked. Mind you, in their new "elections" a lot of candidates where barred from voting, but the process there has begun at least (plus, Shiite Islam allows for modern interpretation of the texts in theory). At anyrate, Sufism (mystic Islam) is very fun to read about. (plus Dune seems to have used a lot of Kaballah and Sufism in it and is a great sci-fi book). So Iran is a problem, but hopefully not forever (but probably given the sad state of affairs in some parts of the world it seems).
I only mentioned the Iraninan Shiite thing because the admin. supposedly didn't realize that the majority of Iraqis were part of a repressed group (shiite by the sunni) so that shows their level of intelligence gathering in this case (if true).
The entire Iraq thing is ridiculous because it is based on a reverse domino effect (make Iraq demo, the rest will follow). We all know how true the original domino theory turned out to be (once Vietnam goes commie, the rest will follow).
Chance, BS, you are wrong. For instance I hate Nazis but have nothing against Germans. Iran's Islamic extremists are as anathema to me as Irag's but they are not Arabs but rather Persian. I have a problem with any ideology that is without a doubt a threat to my country.
I was raised in Dearborn, Michigan a burb of Detroit and it is the home away from home for Arabs worldwide. As a young guy I had many fist fights with Arabs and I also had many that were friends. Most of my Arab friends were assimilated into the U.S. way of life. Most of those were Islamic in the same sense I am a Roman Catholic in that I am Irish and drink beer.
I didn't really think you hated all arabs, but the general feel of your post was bad, probably because you were angry.
Lots of "Irish" americans supported the IRA against the UK during the troubles, which caused problems. Were they acting like US citizens?- no they were allowing a romantic attachment to an idealised place to cloud their thoughts. Following your emotions can lead you astray.
My initial thought was revulsion when I heard about the 4 security guys and I hoped the US would capture those responsible, but levelling city blocks has never helped to change people's minds in the long term.
My initial thought was also revulsion when I heard about a US missile landing in a densely populated area during the war and killing lots of civillians. The US and its allies don't always do the right thing, morally speaking, if that matters. It depends if you think about things in terms of pure self interest or in a broader sense.
"mutual welfare and benefit. judo is not aggressive. "
Judo is not restricted to being either passive or agressive. Judo does what is most efficient in any given circumstance.
Jita Kyoei DOES have a moral component to it, as does Seiryoku Zen'yo.
Debating the morality of what we have done in Iraq is cool. There will be differences of opinion.
Let's keep it respectful, guys.
Ben R.
"My initial thought was revulsion when I heard about the 4 security guys and I hoped the US would capture those responsible, but levelling city blocks has never helped to change people's minds in the long term. "
The problem is that the bad guys, and they are bad guys, even for the majority of Iraqis, are using the city and it's citizens as human shields. THEY are the ones opposing a free and democratic Iraq. The Sunni terrorists are small in number, and want to regain power (so of course they can again repress everyone else in the country.
It's is sometimes necessary to do "immoral" things to do the greater good. WWII is a good example. The terrorists take advantage of the fact that the US HAS MORALS by hiding in a city and using it's citizens as hostages.
Ben R.
U.S. Marines are getting shot from mosques, yet we are not to destroy the mosques? Al Jazeera shows pictures of children killed , yet expect us to believe that children killed 40 Marines? Headlines state 40 Marines killed and 400 Iraqi's dead? How bout calling them Enemies? Hey Al Jazeera... Were the kids launching RPG's at us? Cease fire...Give me a break! SUBMIT or DIE! With todays media, and todays Democratic Party/Liberals ("Usefull Idiots"), the United States of America would never have defeated the Nazi's! Or the Japanese for that matter.Marines are Warriors! Warriors do what Warriors do! Kill the Enemy, and yes..sometimes die while doing it.We did not pre-empt Bin Laden..people get mad. We do pre-empt Saddam..people get mad. Useful Idiots!
"Judo is not restricted to being either passive or agressive. Judo does what is most efficient in any given circumstance."
We have a winner!!
--- "Judo is not restricted to being either passive or agressive. Judo does what is most efficient in any given circumstance."
We have a winner!!" ----
In essence, the argument being made here is that Judo is nothing more than pure, amoral efficiency.
However, efficiency alone is a very limited principle. It tells you how to do things, but not what things you should do.
That's why there's another principle in Judo -- "jita kyoei," which is supposed to guide us in deciding _what_ to do.
I'm also not sure that "seiryoku zenyo" refers simply to mechanical, pragmatic efficiency. I've been rooting around in Japanese dictionaries, and "seiryoku" seems to refer to something more like "vitality." The "zen" in "zenyo" seems to mean "good" (with both practical and moral connotations).
If we were to say, "best (practical and moral) use of power/force/vitality," that would seem a more literal translation of what we're calling simple "efficiency." However, I speak no Japanese, and would be interested to hear the views of any fluent speakers.
As you pointed out by the article by Steve C., it is supposed to be best use of energy for good.
That's what I meant by having to do something "immoral" (like bombing a city and killing civilians) for a greater good (WW2 for example.).
Ben R.
Whatever is done, they had better make a choice (although I haven't read the newspaper this long-weekend).
Either up the ante and deal with these people with force.
Or get the hell out.
But staying and being "wishy washy" about the situation is just no good...