Misconceptions in Lawler/Condit Debate

Underground
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SOO72 - I get it that people think Condit won, but he got the shit kicked out of him in the end no matter how much he scored. Do you really want a champ who got his ass beat like that?

Do you think Aldo should have lost the Hominick fight?

Robbie was near being finished at the end of round 4. Who knows what round 6 would have been if there was one?

Condit won more rounds than Robbie. There is a 10 point must system. Condit won (unless you think round 3 was a draw or a Robbie loss).

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kuttdawg - So those 30% kicks and punches are doing what? To me, that is point fighting. If Condit wanted the W, he should of threw like he wanted to be the next champion. Phone Post 3.0

You literally have no way of objectively measuring damage. Even 30% strikes do damage. Now if the volume wasnt so onesided, you could make the argument that Lawlers knockdown and 5th round rally should count for more than Condits volume

But Condit outlanded him 3-1. That is just a dramatic difference, and its not like Condit did no damage at all, Lawler ate a flying knee, he got wobbled by a left hook etc, Lawlers face didnt exactly look unscratched

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Allow me to be Captain Obvious for a moment:

Based on strikes alone, Carlos clearly had the upper hand. Based on damage, Robbie had the upper hand.

Now, in my opinion:

Basing it on the scoring system, Carlos should have won, although I am not that upset with the decision since that was one hell of a fight. Having said that, I do hope we get to see a rematch because I want to see these two amazing warriors go at it again!

PLEASE DON'T RETIRE, CARLOS!!!

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GSPsShadyHandWraps -
kuttdawg - So those 30% kicks and punches are doing what? To me, that is point fighting. If Condit wanted the W, he should of threw like he wanted to be the next champion. Phone Post 3.0

You literally have no way of objectively measuring damage. Even 30% strikes do damage. Now if the volume wasnt so onesided, you could make the argument that Lawlers knockdown and 5th round rally should count for more than Condits volume

But Condit outlanded him 3-1. That is just a dramatic difference, and its not like Condit did no damage at all, Lawler ate a flying knee, he got wobbled by a left hook etc, Lawlers face didnt exactly look unscratched

This.

For instance kicks don't have to be thrown hard at all to knock someone out. You just have to touch the chin in the right spot when you are utilizing the leverage of your leg. Phone Post 3.0

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SOO72 - I get it that people think Condit won, but he got the shit kicked out of him in the end no matter how much he scored. Do you really want a champ who got his ass beat like that?
Robbie got the shit kicked out of him in the fourth? Phone Post 3.0

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GSPsShadyHandWraps - 
kuttdawg - So those 30% kicks and punches are doing what? To me, that is point fighting. If Condit wanted the W, he should of threw like he wanted to be the next champion. Phone Post 3.0

You literally have no way of objectively measuring damage. Even 30% strikes do damage. Now if the volume wasnt so onesided, you could make the argument that Lawlers knockdown and 5th round rally should count for more than Condits volume

But Condit outlanded him 3-1. That is just a dramatic difference, and its not like Condit did no damage at all, Lawler ate a flying knee, he got wobbled by a left hook etc, Lawlers face didnt exactly look unscratched


Great post.

Another thing to consider: Both Lawler and Condit landed one major strike in round 3. Beyond that, Condit outlanded him like crazy. Seems like a good tie-breaker.

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RelativeNoob - Allow me to be Captain Obvious for a moment:

Based on strikes alone, Carlos clearly had the upper hand. Based on damage, Robbie had the upper hand.

Now, in my opinion:

Basing it on the scoring system, Carlos should have won, although I am not that upset with the decision since that was one hell of a fight. Having said that, I do hope we get to see a rematch because I want to see these two amazing warriors go at it again!

PLEASE DON'T RETIRE, CARLOS!!!


"Based on strikes alone, Carlos clearly had the upper hand. Based on damage, Robbie had the upper hand."

Not really. In rounds 1&2 both guys had one knock down each (and yes, the round 1 knock down was legit, as Jack Slack notes in his last article. Was the alternate angle GIF).

In round 3, they both landed one major strike each. Then Condit outlanded him for the rest of the round.

In round 4, Carlos almost finished Robbie.

In round 5, Robbie almost finished Carlos.

Robbie did NOT clearly do more damage.

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I hate to break it to you all when you call people stupid and that they don't know what they are watching when they say Robbie won the 3rd but....

The judges gave him it, he won the fight, and various fighters and ex fighters have said he won it too....so I think I'll take their opinion over some no mark on an Internet forum!

It was a close fight, I can't wait to see the rematch but the outrage and ridiculing of people who didn't think Carlos won is pathetic.

I wanted Carlos to win but I thought Robbie did enough....and that's that! Phone Post 3.0

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GelderdEnd - I hate to break it to you all when you call people stupid and that they don't know what they are watching when they say Robbie won the 3rd but....

The judges gave him it, he won the fight, and various fighters and ex fighters have said he won it too....so I think I'll take their opinion over some no mark on an Internet forum!

It was a close fight, I can't wait to see the rematch but the outrage and ridiculing of people who didn't think Carlos won is pathetic.

I wanted Carlos to win but I thought Robbie did enough....and that's that! Phone Post 3.0

My OP does not call people who scored round 3 for Robbie dumb.

I gave my opinion later on. But the OP was about the premise of any discussion about judging fights.

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Robbie faceplanted in the first round. He was also wilting under Condit's elbows in the fourth.

Carlos got dropped in the second and was completely out of gas when Robbie was turning up the heat in the fifth.

Pretty even in terms of "damage" in that sense IMO. Other than that Condit outstruck him 2:1 and was simply more active. The third round was an example of that. Phone Post 3.0

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Mad Xyientist - The fight should be a draw. If we are really splitting hairs this much 24 hours later with close to 50% on each side, neither fighter clearly bested the other, They competed evenly, and that's a draw

The polls here, and the scoring of the MMA sites and journalists, are nowhere near 50/50, are they? More like 3-1 in favor of Condit.

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orcus -
Mad Xyientist - The fight should be a draw. If we are really splitting hairs this much 24 hours later with close to 50% on each side, neither fighter clearly bested the other, They competed evenly, and that's a draw

The polls here, and the scoring of the MMA sites and journalists, are nowhere near 50/50, are they? More like 3-1 in favor of Condit.
Most seem to be around the 70-80% mark yes Phone Post 3.0

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kuttdawg - So those 30% kicks and punches are doing what? To me, that is point fighting. If Condit wanted the W, he should of threw like he wanted to be the next champion. Phone Post 3.0
That's how Condit has mostly always threw his strikes. Especially in 5 round fights. He is finisher by accumulated damage. Only a few are one strike shots. You don't have to throw 100% to finish, and it gasses you out Phone Post 3.0

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HolyHackBBCZack - 4) Condits 'knockdown' in the first was a push/slip Phone Post 3.0

Robbie was clearly off balance, that's for sure. I thought a punch did land, though.

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GSPsShadyHandWraps - 
kuttdawg - So those 30% kicks and punches are doing what? To me, that is point fighting. If Condit wanted the W, he should of threw like he wanted to be the next champion. Phone Post 3.0

You literally have no way of objectively measuring damage. Even 30% strikes do damage. Now if the volume wasnt so onesided, you could make the argument that Lawlers knockdown and 5th round rally should count for more than Condits volume

But Condit outlanded him 3-1. That is just a dramatic difference, and its not like Condit did no damage at all, Lawler ate a flying knee, he got wobbled by a left hook etc, Lawlers face didnt exactly look unscratched


When did Robbie get wobbled? I must have missed that.

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Ministry of Truth -
GSPsShadyHandWraps - 
kuttdawg - So those 30% kicks and punches are doing what? To me, that is point fighting. If Condit wanted the W, he should of threw like he wanted to be the next champion. Phone Post 3.0

You literally have no way of objectively measuring damage. Even 30% strikes do damage. Now if the volume wasnt so onesided, you could make the argument that Lawlers knockdown and 5th round rally should count for more than Condits volume

But Condit outlanded him 3-1. That is just a dramatic difference, and its not like Condit did no damage at all, Lawler ate a flying knee, he got wobbled by a left hook etc, Lawlers face didnt exactly look unscratched


When did Robbie get wobbled? I must have missed that.
Did you not see the fourth round? He was wobbled in the fourth and almost finished. Phone Post 3.0

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Round 5 was very close actually. Condit dominates the first 3 minutes and then all hell breaks loose. Great round but not as lopsided as it seems. Very close round. That round could be argued as well. Not disparaging Lawler at all...just rewatch it. It's not what you think it was.

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It was an extremely close fight and it's easy to go back and say all this shit after the fight but at the time when it was live I was scoring it in my head and I gave Robbie round 3. Had Carlos for 1 and 4 and Robbie 2 and 3 going into the 5th. Phone Post 3.0

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wiggum - 
GelderdEnd - I hate to break it to you all when you call people stupid and that they don't know what they are watching when they say Robbie won the 3rd but....

The judges gave him it, he won the fight, and various fighters and ex fighters have said he won it too....so I think I'll take their opinion over some no mark on an Internet forum!

It was a close fight, I can't wait to see the rematch but the outrage and ridiculing of people who didn't think Carlos won is pathetic.

I wanted Carlos to win but I thought Robbie did enough....and that's that! Phone Post 3.0

My OP does not call people who scored round 3 for Robbie dumb.

I gave my opinion later on. But the OP was about the premise of any discussion about judging fights.

Just to elaborate:

OP was about clearing up 3 misconceptions. One went against some Condit supporters - that his total strike count is a reason why he won the fight. The other two went against some Robbie supporters - the false notion that, other than keeping the title in case of a draw, the champion gets the benefit of the doubt in decisions and that Carlos was somehow point fighting.

I made clear that reasonable people can disagree on the decision.

If you want to get into it, though, there were indeed fighters who gave Robbie the fight. Many, many more fighters and analysts gave the fight to Carlos.

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Carson's Corner radio show - 


Good thread! On rounds, I thought Condit shaded it or draw, but with the way it ended I knew it was Robbie SD for sure. Judges seem afraid to take the title from anyone who didn't retain it by dubious split decision first, then that person will generally lose it on a "revenge" decision in the next one.



170 has been pretty awesome though, that's for sure. Condit and Lawler are collectively about 60-70% of the reason for that. That fight is what modern MMA is all about, or should be.


Hell yeah.