SamboSteve - Ross, you are essentially saying that what the 2009 bill states is OK on paper,
NO, that is NOT what I am saying. Look at NJ. They have a great commission, well regulated events, yet they do NOT interfere and tax the schools/gyms
Again, "hear say", but at one point the NY commission thought that since MMA is "big business" each MMA facility in NYS should be paying several thousand dollars in "fees" to the commission
In theory, it's great to say "it requires facilities to have accessible first aid supplies; staff trained in CPR" etc but the bill is OPEN ENDED in the powers it gives the commission
Again, if you had someone like Nick Lembo in charge down there, I'd be a lot less concerned
BUT I have had direct experience with the NYS commission. They do not inspire trust
Of course, I also object(ed?) to the lack of amateur.....
Again, you are trashing a decent (not perfect) bill based on worry, rumor, and conjecture
So you think NJ dopes not tax businesses in their state? Really? Or are you referring to licensing fees? Please post the NJ law for review. I have paid corner and manager license fees in NJ.
It is not just great "in theory" to require these things, it is in fact great to require these things. You worry about what "might" happen through interpretation of the law. What about "gyms" that actually don't fulfill these minimum requirments now?
siouxNYC - from what i have been told someone very knowledgeable and experienced is being considered for a "mma specialist" role in the commission. also, provisions for amateur mma are being considered.
of course, with november's election of a new governor, questions exist as to if the current chairperson of the commission will keep her post...
john joe - MMA in NY is being blocked by the Unite Here union; a better approach would be for Unite Here members based in NY to ask why their union is persisting in wanting their favourite sport to stay illegal in the state, because of a separate labor-issue dispute relating to a non-MMA business (Station Casinos) owned and operated by the co-owners of an MMA promotion (the UFC).
Strikeforce or Bellator, for example, cant promote a show in NY if they wanted to, because Unite Here doesnt like the Fertitta brothers. Thats basically why NY is shut to MMA.
john joe - MMA in NY is being blocked by the Unite Here union; a better approach would be for Unite Here members based in NY to ask why their union is persisting in wanting their favourite sport to stay illegal in the state, because of a separate labor-issue dispute relating to a non-MMA business (Station Casinos) owned and operated by the co-owners of an MMA promotion (the UFC).
Strikeforce or Bellator, for example, cant promote a show in NY if they wanted to, because Unite Here doesnt like the Fertitta brothers. Thats basically why NY is shut to MMA.
i know who told you that, john joe, and i don't agree that that's 100% the case. there's more to it than the unions.
My gut is that even in Unite here is actively lobbying against MMA in NY (which I want to look into more closely), a massive movement by fans and NY Business owners who keep contacting their representatives in Albany could counter act. Lobbyists do fail when there is strong enough support from the people.
it's not so much bob reilly at this point. the pro mma bills have easily skated through his committee twice now. he's just the most vocal opponent of the movement and the most identifiable target.
Again, you are trashing a decent (not perfect) bill based on worry, rumor, and conjecture
I am objecting to a bill that gives the NYS commission a blank check and sole authority over all schools/gyms/facilities
Why should we worry? Well in the past the NYS commission (1) closed down and/or harassed perfectly legal events, (2) lied and misrepresented to many members of our community, including our best local promoters and (3) did NOT apply the existing law evenly or fairly
Should we trust our representatives in Albany? well, the bill we are talking about was not even originally an MMA bill. It was the late Paul Rosner's and he and many people associated with the USKBA fought to get it to move forward only to have it "substituted" at the last minute.
UNITE HERE is governed by five elected General Officers and an elected General Executive Board with representation from across the union. John W. Wilhelm is UNITE HERE’s President.
UNITE HERE’s General Officers were elected on June 30, 2009, at the Union’s first constitutional convention. They are:
President – John W. Wilhelm
Secretary-Treasurer – Sherri Chiesa
Recording Secretary – Peter Ward
General Vice President – D. Taylor
General Vice President for Immigration, Civil Rights, and Diversity – Tho Thi Do
The largest union of gaming workers in the world, UNITE HERE represents 100,000 casino workers in California, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Nevada, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Toronto, Vancouver, and other gaming jurisdictions. Within its traditional bargaining unit, UNITE HERE now represents 48% of workers in the U.S commercial gaming industry. UNITE HERE has significant representation at the top three U.S. gaming companies: Harrah's Entertainment (62%), MGM Mirage (91%), and Boyd Gaming (43%). The national scope and power of UNITE HERE has led to increased contract bargaining power with employers, producing groundbreaking contracts that include full family health care, pensions, middle-class wages, job security, and even housing benefits. Over the last 5 years, nearly 80,000 gaming workers have negotiated new union contracts. UNITE HERE has an active organizing program to bring more gaming workers solidly into the middle-class. Over the next several years, more than 27,000 workers will be added to the union through national and local organizing agreements. These agreements will significantly increase the power of union members in the gaming industry. UNITE HERE has a national partnership with the Teamsters and International Union of Operating Engineers to coordinate organizing and bargaining efforts in the gaming industry.
Again, you are trashing a decent (not perfect) bill based on worry, rumor, and conjecture
I am objecting to a bill that gives the NYS commission a blank check and sole authority over all schools/gyms/facilities
Why should we worry? Well in the past the NYS commission (1) closed down and/or harassed perfectly legal events, (2) lied and misrepresented to many members of our community, including our best local promoters and (3) did NOT apply the existing law evenly or fairly
Should we trust our representatives in Albany? well, the bill we are talking about was not even originally an MMA bill. It was the late Paul Rosner's and he and many people associated with the USKBA fought to get it to move forward only to have it "substituted" at the last minute.
Ross, you are debating 2 seperate issues. Passage of law and enforcement of law. This is and will always be an issue in politics/government. But,because you or others have had problems with the NYS commission, does not have to do with the bill. It is enforcement...a seperate issue. I would wager that the vast majority of shows in NYC have never had problems with the commission.
I have run shows in NYC as you know. Never had a problem dealing with the commission. Yes, annoying sometimes, but OK. We have had commission officials at our shows, no problems. I know others have had some problems in the past. This may not change. There will always be instances of corruption or dime dropping, or whatever. But, The vast majority of shows in NYC (non-mma obviously) have no problems with the commission. I am sure it will be the same once mma is legalized.
Would you object to housing laws, or restauant laws, health club laws for the same reasons?
The benefits far outweight the possible abuses you are paranoid about.
UNITE HERE Members Condemn Las Vegas Company's Anti-Union Campaign
March 16, 2010
Las Vegas, NV--In two demonstrations on March 11, over 1,500 members from the Culinary Workers Union, Local 226 and Bartenders Union, Local 165 from Las Vegas Strip and Downtown casinos joined workers from Station Casinos who want a fair process to decide whether to form a union without management interference. Workers outraged by the company's treatment of workers and decision to wage a vicious, anti-union campaign, picketed in front of one of the company's ten large Las Vegas casinos.
The unions have filed Unfair Labor Practice charges against the company with the National Labor Relations Board alleging Station Casinos has broken federal labor law in over 100 incidences by using threats, harassment, surveillance, physical assaults, retaliatory warnings , suspensions, and firings as part of an illegal campaign to stop workers from forming a union.
Station Casinos, with over 13,000 employees, is the third largest private employer in the Las Vegas Valley. Workers from the company's ten large casinos, which cater to locals, formed a union organizing committee in mid-February and soon after returned to work wearing their union committee leader buttons and began talking to their co-workers about forming a union. The company's aggressive and hostile union campaign has only fortified the workers' resolve and outraged members of the Culinary and Bartenders unions who, along with their friends and families, make up a good portion of the company's local customer base.
Since a management-led buyout in November 2007 that paid Station Casinos insiders $660 million, the company has subcontracted out its PBX, coffee shops, and uniform departments to outside operators. Hundreds of workers have lost their jobs with the company as a result. The company has also cut hours, made permanent layoffs, suspended the workers 401(k) match, and raised employees' health insurance premiums.
Saddled with a large debt load from the buyout, the company filed for bankruptcy on July 28, 2009.
I would wager that the vast majority of shows in NYC have never had problems with the commission.
People who have had trouble with the commission include Lou Neglia, Joe Poolio (sp?), Tommy Bottone, Gene Fabrikante, Vlad Borodine, Joe Lacosta, William Rivera, Ed Hsu, Michael Corleone and Mike Martinez. That's a pretty significant group for NYS combat sports/martial arts
What was funny was, while the commission was shutting down amateur KB shows where people were wearing shin pads and head gear, there were full contact Kyokushinkai matches where people were leaving in stretchers and other such events going on that the commission never did anything about.
IE, the current law reads if you kick and punch and there is money involved, it is illegal. Yet amateur KB with no money involved got shut down but karate events where money was offered were not.
Also, don't know what Jim Genia is referring to, but there is no question UNITE is opposed to the bill, to any bill martial arts related, and they have made the process more difficult
"Should we trust our representatives in Albany? well, the bill we are talking about was not even originally an MMA bill. It was the late Paul Rosner's and he and many people associated with the USKBA fought to get it to move forward only to have it 'substituted' at the last minute."
see, this is why i missed you. you go on and on about stuff you know zero about to the point where it's just sheer entertainment. paul rosner had his hand in a different bill; the one in question was drafted by attorney mike kim. and as bills go, it was well-researched and well-crafted. mike kim did his homework.
as for trusting albany, you need a firmer grasp of how laws are made. and yes, i know what happened with the bill rosner tried to get passed, as well as what happened to the mma bills the subsequent years. politics sucks, but it's the system we're stuck with. besides, if we lived in anarchy and chaos, you'd be one of the first humans we'd eat for food.
"Why should we worry? Well in the past the NYS commission (1) closed down and/or harassed perfectly legal events, (2) lied and misrepresented to many members of our community, including our best local promoters and (3) did NOT apply the existing law evenly or fairly"
this is gold. after all the years that you argued that the what the commission said was gospel and you railed against the UCL, to see you post that... pure gold. when forum member "jumpkick" reads what you wrote he might die of laughter!
I know exactly what transpired with Paul's bill. I certainly know how things went down and WHY. Please don't pretend you don't know what I am talking about. Also, don't try and twist things back to your beloved UCL. This thread has not yet mentioned it nor has anything to do with it
Sambosteve appears (don't want to put words in his mouth) to believe that any bill that makes MMA legal is a good one. I simply don't agree.
lkfmdc - Also, don't know what Jim Genia is referring to, but there is no question UNITE is opposed to the bill, to any bill martial arts related, and they have made the process more difficult
there's more to the equation than just the unions.
Again, many people are so enthralled with the idea of the UFC at MSG or a NYC based MMA promotion that they just want to see MMA legal in NYS
But politics being what it is, especially in this state, no bill is ever that simple. So, again, I'd rather see things the way they are now than a potential blank check for a commission with a sorted background
