https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MFYTDGGZQ
great video
Great! My New Years resolution this year was to change the way I play guard to allow for strikes, I've been watching a lot of bustamantes fights but this has also offered some insights 
In addition, here is a link to a giant article I wrote about this video above. It breaks down the particular styles of guard, submissions and sweeps used by Firaz, Gary and Gordon, as well as training implications for regular joes who do BJJ but still believe that it is a martial ART as well as a martial sport.
Please check it out and let me know what you think!
http://www.grapplearts.com/the-bjj-self-defense-experiment/
Thx
Stephan
PTSDSA - Probably going to get destroyed for this, but those "demonstrations" don't even come close to the real thing. Much easier to land glancing blows as your moving around without pillows on your hands, and the "strikers" didn't even appear to be trying to land a punch.
Maybe I'm seeing elite bjj skill against a striker, but it doesn't look like it. At one point a striker actually lands a punch and says "sorry" and at one point in the video the guys watching have to remind the striker he's supposed to be punching. This doesn't seem much of a demonstration of anything.
Anyone ever put mma gloves on someone and offer them money if they can knock them out/make them tap? That seems more realistic.
so you're saying these guys and the trainer of a top level MMA gym don't understand the concept on how to correctly train to defend strikes off their back? You gotta be kidding me. They probably understand this better than any TMA/self defense/Gracie combatives instructor on the planet
The guy apologized for accidentally punching him in the balls, not for hitting him in the face
Your last quote is ignorant. That's what they do for a living, train guys to KO/submit guys with MMA gloves on while the other guy is trying to KO/submit their own fighter. They demonstrate that every time they step in the cage. Do you expect them to do that in the gym every time just for a demonstration so they take unnecessary damage and not be able to perform in the cage?
I actually agree with your assessment though there is still value in the material being presented. He points out at the end that the strikers are blue belt level. 
It's a good experiment, but this is dancing. Dealing with fully committed bare knuckle punches by a committed, but we'll say, relatively unskilled-but-highly committed-and-aggressive attacker is not like this. How do I know? I've been on the receiving end.
The strikers had no aggression.
PTSDSA - Probably going to get destroyed for this, but those "demonstrations" don't even come close to the real thing. Much easier to land glancing blows as your moving around without pillows on your hands, and the "strikers" didn't even appear to be trying to land a punch.I agree with you.
Maybe I'm seeing elite bjj skill against a striker, but it doesn't look like it. At one point a striker actually lands a punch and says "sorry" and at one point in the video the guys watching have to remind the striker he's supposed to be punching. This doesn't seem much of a demonstration of anything.
Anyone ever put mma gloves on someone and offer them money if they can knock them out/make them tap? That seems more realistic.
Not impressed. They seriously lacked aggression. And LOFL@ apologizing for a nut punch. This is where the MMA bullshit shows.
Back in the 90's we had foam helmets and boxing gloves we'd train with sometimes to work certain aspects of vale tudo. Most other times we just did light open hand striking, because wearing stupid boxing gloves dont allow you to use your hands to grab, push, pins, etc. We used to throw headbutts past to the side of the opponennts head when we hd them pinned/controlled. Elbows, knees and heel kicks were pulled.....mostly ;p Where I train now when we spar nowadays we have helmets and mma gloves and cups.....and I actually dont like that because it interferes a lot of hand use, etc and I still just use everything I learned long ago in vale tudo class.
Jiujitsu needs to have real vale tudo as a requirement in its curriculum. It wasnt perfect.....needed improvements in some of its striking and better clinch, which is why I suplemented. But training VT would have less people acting like vids and articles like this are some new discovery that needs a scientific review and disection of the techniques....LOL?
So tired of hearing about torrance or others that have self defense requirement......IME, there is a huge difference in the SD curriculum v. Vale Tudo. VT is the meat&potatos fighting application of jiujitsu technique. There was a reason for certain positio ing and movement in grappling that are related to certain ways of striking an opponent, and on the opposite side of the coin preventing striking by an oppoenent.
What's dope is that training with Rickson and his guys is that there is no difference between Bjj, vale tudo, and mma. It must work for all, always.
Jack Taufer - What's dope is that training with Rickson and his guys is that there is no difference between Bjj, vale tudo, and mma. It must work for all, always.
The problem is jiujitsu is about beating jiujitsu nowadays....not fighting with jiujitsu.
Nothing is perfect, there always is a counter. If you remove the fighting facet of jiujitsu, then you've removed the reason certain things are done and solutions to problems can become more complex or specialized. For example, from a pressure oriented style....framing in bottom of side control and how the frames relate to striking or positional changes. Take away the "fightijg" facet and many more options are now on the table to score points or work toward a submission as the objective of traing is a "win" is based upon points and not not being ko'd.
Anothe example, look at the clinch....who does it and what is their objective in training? Was it Marcus in another thread describing 20 some odd throws in jiujitsu? The training method to develop the clinch and all grappling skill, requires "sportive" methodolgy (using resistance training) to develop needed attributes, but certain specific tweeks need to be ingrained to optimize applicability as it relates to defensive use. Competitive pressure requires max-efficiency in training, therefore if fighting is not part of the objective, techniques and skills become focused solely on thise applicable and who needs 20 throws?!?!?! But really, I'll hazard a guess based upon what I learned, it not 20 throws, more variations of several different ones based upon position, grips and movemets. It safe to say....jiujitsu requires ZERO clinch and throws if one removes the fighting aspect.
Sgt. Slaphead -Jack Taufer - What's dope is that training with Rickson and his guys is that there is no difference between Bjj, vale tudo, and mma. It must work for all, always.
The problem is jiujitsu is about beating jiujitsu nowadays....not fighting with jiujitsu.
Nothing is perfect, there always is a counter. If you remove the fighting facet of jiujitsu, then you've removed the reason certain things are done and solutions to problems can become more complex or specialized. For example, from a pressure oriented style....framing in bottom of side control and how the frames relate to striking or positional changes. Take away the "fightijg" facet and many more options are now on the table to score points or work toward a submission as the objective of traing is a "win" is based upon points and not not being ko'd.
Anothe example, look at the clinch....who does it and what is their objective in training? Was it Marcus in another thread describing 20 some odd throws in jiujitsu? The training method to develop the clinch and all grappling skill, requires "sportive" methodolgy (using resistance training) to develop needed attributes, but certain specific tweeks need to be ingrained to optimize applicability as it relates to defensive use. Competitive pressure requires max-efficiency in training, therefore if fighting is not part of the objective, techniques and skills become focused solely on thise applicable and who needs 20 throws?!?!?! But really, I'll hazard a guess based upon what I learned, it not 20 throws, more variations of several different ones based upon position, grips and movemets. It safe to say....jiujitsu requires ZERO clinch and throws if one removes the fighting aspect.
If you are that concerned about the clinch and want to get good at it, just go train Greco-Roman wrestling. Everything about the clinch they train is superior to any clinch work BJJ/GJJ has to offer.
My buddy is a longtime competitive Greco wrestler (national level) and has trained sport BJJ with basic boxing for a decent amount of time. I can guarantee he would F**K anybody up in the clinch in a one on one mma/street fight save for high level professional mma fighters who specialize in the clinch, and I'd bet that includes almost anyone with the last name Gracie.
Renzo has definitely train his jiujitsu with the fighting aspect in mind his whole life. What good did that serve him when he came up against a specialist in one important area, who had developed their craft in a purely sportive aspect? Dan Henderson, who has not trained vale tudo jiujitsu or "street" applicable jiujitsu. Renzo who is arguably one of the best Gracies at fighting in anything and has trained in this "fighting/combat/street" style for much of his life, did not dominate the clinch despite his training and knowledge of strikes and other possibilities of things illegal in sport Greco. Henderson (who has trained entirely in a sportive aspect) was the one dominating the clinch with dirty boxing and look who was the one that ended up laid out.....certainly not the one who trained in a sportive environment.
My point is that training things in a purely sportive aspect is not wrong, and that training with the fighting aspect in mind is not always the best manner to develop strong attributes for a selected skill set.
Jack Taufer - What's dope is that training with Rickson and his guys is that there is no difference between Bjj, vale tudo, and mma. It must work for all, always.
So Rickson and his guys do cross collar chokes in vale tudo and mma also then? Where are Kron's loop chokes in his mma fights?
With your given philosophy of Rickson, he might be better off training Luta Livre or No-Gi than BJJ
I never understood why when we use pro fighters to demonstrate the positive and negatives of BJJ on the street.
And I pretty sure that if I get into something on the street its not going to be with someone that fights in Bellator or even in the local scene. Some of you guys are training like you expect to meet Fedor on the streets. We've seen enough vids of street fights to see BJJ effectiveness as long as you dont get fancy.
If youre training the other arts because you like them...then great. But you dont have to have Olympic level greco skills to clinch a drunk on the street.
mideastgrappler -Jack Taufer - What's dope is that training with Rickson and his guys is that there is no difference between Bjj, vale tudo, and mma. It must work for all, always.
So Rickson and his guys do cross collar chokes in vale tudo and mma also then? Where are Kron's loop chokes in his mma fights?
With your given philosophy of Rickson, he might be better off training Luta Livre or No-Gi than BJJ
Haha.... Well, they don't wear gi's in mma, so no collar chokes... But mma isn't a street fight, and in street fights people actually do wear clothes and that makes the chance of choking someone with a "collar choke" possible. Also, with Rickson and Kron's mma wins, I don't think we can dispute that their bjj works in mma. Rickson and Kron both have some of the most limited striking skills a professional fighter can have, and both have won their fights with their jiu jitsu.
I believe that Jack is trying to say that Rickson and his guys emphasize bjj for more than just a pure grappling scenario ie: here's this bjj technique, remember to control this and that because realistically, your opponenet can punch you in the face here. As opposed to training at place like say Atos, where they specialize in competition jiu jitsu, and any mention of getting punched in the face while teaching sport related techniques is probably non-existent.
I'll also add that what Jack is saying is 100% true. I've trained at several gyms with several different teaching and training philosophies. My first two years of bjj were under a Rickson black belt and a large part of the instruction is bjj for self defense, as well as pure grappling techniques. Bjj for an actual fight was emphasized more there than at any other gym I've trained at.
I've also trained under and Alliance black belt, and the instruction there was more geared towards pure sport bjj. However, that instructor fought several vale tudo fights using pretty much only bjj. He had no real striking experience, other than common punch blocking awareness, and he won all of fights while under a "sport" bjj instructor, using bjj.
I've been training at an mma gym for most of my time in bjj, and the classes range from sport bjj both gi and nogi, and grappling for mma. I teach at this gym, i've mainly trained for sport bjj, but it's not hard to decipher between techniques that will be more useful in a fight than in a pure grappling scenario. I'm also fortunate enough to train under Cole Miller, who has shown a shitload of bjj in mma, and he's well aware of the difference between grappling in fight and in mma. Yet, he trains both.
I honestly can't believe we're still having this conversation... Yes, bjj can protect you and help you win a fight and that's been shown time and time again. However, there are far too many variables to determine if bjj is all you'd ever need for any fight. It's a fight, and anything can happen. I think that's been shown time and time again as well.
mideastgrappler -Sgt. Slaphead -Jack Taufer - What's dope is that training with Rickson and his guys is that there is no difference between Bjj, vale tudo, and mma. It must work for all, always.
The problem is jiujitsu is about beating jiujitsu nowadays....not fighting with jiujitsu.
Nothing is perfect, there always is a counter. If you remove the fighting facet of jiujitsu, then you've removed the reason certain things are done and solutions to problems can become more complex or specialized. For example, from a pressure oriented style....framing in bottom of side control and how the frames relate to striking or positional changes. Take away the "fightijg" facet and many more options are now on the table to score points or work toward a submission as the objective of traing is a "win" is based upon points and not not being ko'd.
Anothe example, look at the clinch....who does it and what is their objective in training? Was it Marcus in another thread describing 20 some odd throws in jiujitsu? The training method to develop the clinch and all grappling skill, requires "sportive" methodolgy (using resistance training) to develop needed attributes, but certain specific tweeks need to be ingrained to optimize applicability as it relates to defensive use. Competitive pressure requires max-efficiency in training, therefore if fighting is not part of the objective, techniques and skills become focused solely on thise applicable and who needs 20 throws?!?!?! But really, I'll hazard a guess based upon what I learned, it not 20 throws, more variations of several different ones based upon position, grips and movemets. It safe to say....jiujitsu requires ZERO clinch and throws if one removes the fighting aspect.
If you are that concerned about the clinch and want to get good at it, just go train Greco-Roman wrestling. Everything about the clinch they train is superior to any clinch work BJJ/GJJ has to offer.
My buddy is a longtime competitive Greco wrestler (national level) and has trained sport BJJ with basic boxing for a decent amount of time. I can guarantee he would F**K anybody up in the clinch in a one on one mma/street fight save for high level professional mma fighters who specialize in the clinch, and I'd bet that includes almost anyone with the last name Gracie.
Renzo has definitely train his jiujitsu with the fighting aspect in mind his whole life. What good did that serve him when he came up against a specialist in one important area, who had developed their craft in a purely sportive aspect? Dan Henderson, who has not trained vale tudo jiujitsu or "street" applicable jiujitsu. Renzo who is arguably one of the best Gracies at fighting in anything and has trained in this "fighting/combat/street" style for much of his life, did not dominate the clinch despite his training and knowledge of strikes and other possibilities of things illegal in sport Greco. Henderson (who has trained entirely in a sportive aspect) was the one dominating the clinch with dirty boxing and look who was the one that ended up laid out.....certainly not the one who trained in a sportive environment.
My point is that training things in a purely sportive aspect is not wrong, and that training with the fighting aspect in mind is not always the best manner to develop strong attributes for a selected skill set.
Yes, I have supplemented. Why is it bad to seek to improve fighting/defensive facetz of bjj?.....isnt that what happens in the sport facet?
So your GR friend supplemented his greco base with strikijg and bjj....EXACTLY!
And in mma, the person who can dictate the fight in their strongest facet of skill......wins?!?!? So henederson out clinched renzo and dominated with purely secret sportive greco dirty boxing skills Henderson and Couture are friends of my coach and.....is it safe to say, they like your friend supplemented their training for entry into mma? Did Ronda enter mma with only a olympic judo skillset?
You wrote....."My point is that training things in a purely sportive aspect is not wrong, and that training with the fighting aspect in mind is not always the best manner to develop strong attributes for a selected skill set."
My point is that training things in a more broadly applicable aspect is not wrong, and that training ONLY with the sporting aspect in mind is not always the best manner to develop strong attributes for fighting/defensive skill set.
LCSULLA - I never understood why when we use pro fighters to demonstrate the positive and negatives of BJJ on the street.
And I pretty sure that if I get into something on the street its not going to be with someone that fights in Bellator or even in the local scene. Some of you guys are training like you expect to meet Fedor on the streets. We've seen enough vids of street fights to see BJJ effectiveness as long as you dont get fancy.
If youre training the other arts because you like them...then great. But you dont have to have Olympic level greco skills to clinch a drunk on the street.
Indeed. So having fundamental level skills in clinch and striking.....which improves odds of taking less damage, have better control and not be reliant on seeking the ground would be a good thing for defensive purposes?!?!?
Such a bizzarre video..
It is my understanding, from years in these forums, that when in a street fight, the bjj'er inevitably will have to deal with constants such as:
- The opponent having world titles in both wrestling and muai thai.
- He will undoubtedly not be wearing any clothes to grab on to
- Cement floor will be littered with hypodermic needles and broken glass.
- His buddies, also trained grapplers with decades of striking behind them will always jump in
None of these things were addressed in the video.
SlapUsilly -Bravo my friend. VU
Such a bizzarre video..
It is my understanding, from years in these forums, that when in a street fight, the bjj'er inevitably will have to deal with constants such as:
- The opponent having world titles in both wrestling and muai thai.
- He will undoubtedly not be wearing any clothes to grab on to
- Cement floor will be littered with hypodermic needles and broken glass.
- His buddies, also trained grapplers with decades of striking behind them will always jump in
None of these things were addressed in the video.
I see what ya did there. ;)