your just tryin to make me look bad by reverting to personal attacks...what you say changes nothing

these are my opinions...

if you want to rant and whine and troll then keep wont affect what i think

How about 185 ???

Menne arguably was the real world Champ for 185 lbs. He beat Pele (for the 185 WEF belt). Pele was a terror at the time with 5 8-man tournaments. Then Menne won the Kuwaiti tournament (Including Newton). He had loads of wins on the smaller circuit and his only losses since the Pele bout were against Chris Munsen and Kanehara who were both 200 lbers (both were out of the 185 lbs wt class so would not be title bouts). The Castillo bout was not really and Championship bout, but it was a formality to get Menne a belt that could be considered a world belt. He then lost to Busta.

Busta beat Linland (twice), then lost to Rampage (not really a 185 lbs bout). Then he lost to Henderson who is maybe 185-190'ish. That could be a legit title bout for the linear champion making Hendo the MW champ... ???

How about Suda??? He holds the Shooto World Belt and defeated some real players like Lance Gibson (they were the Shooto #1 and #2 at the time), Ronald Jhun, Ryo Chonan, Egan Inoue.

However, before that he had lost to Eric Paulsen (the Shooto Champ at 187 lbs). Paulsen retired a relinquished the belt in 9/00... The next significant 187 lbs in Shooto was Suda v. Gono in 11/00... Gono won and stayed undefeated until he fought Kondo in 12/01.

Kondo then lost to Monmose (not sure of his actual wt) then he beat Monmose and hasn't lost to a 185'ish lber yet. However, the Pancrase wt class is 181 - 199 so this may not apply for Kondo (kind of to heavy, even though he can fight at 185 I would suspect).

Rich, Menne WAS a very good top ten fighter but, the fact that he beat Pele doesnt warrant him as title contender. Menne has an extensive record but the top three contenders are Sak, Busta and Lindland.

Besides, Pele only won those tourneys in Brasil against mostly no-name Brasilians. Whenever he faced top ten guys on the world circuit he usually got his @$$ handed to him.

i think we had a guy in my hometown named Johnny Blaze...owned a gay bar i think...died of AIDES

Bradda - Sakuraba was no doubt the best 185 lber at the time that Menne beat Pele, however... he really didn't fight many opponents at 185'ish. They were mostly 200'ish... So from that stand point, he was not really representing the 185 lbs field of competitors

From 1998 - mid 2000

Vernon White - 200'ish

Newton - 185'is

Allan Goes - 200'ish

Vitor Belfort - 200'ish

Ebenezer Braga 200'ish

Anthony Macias - 190'ish

Royler Gracie - LIGHT.

Guy Mezger - 200'ish

Royce Gracie - 190'ish

Igor Vovchanchyn - 210'ish

That is maybe 3 guys in the ballpark of 185

Likewise, Busta did not come down to 185 until he fought Menne in 02

So, I am coming at this to say that we have a guy fighting at 185 (or under) who did some things to warrant the initiation of a linear title picture.

Look at Pele... when he lost to Menne, he was not unlike Silva (whom you gave credit enough to warrant Ortiz becoming the champ by defeating him at that time). We see that Pele won all those tournaments and defeated:

Milton Bahia

Johil de Oliveira

Rodney Faverus

Pat Miletich (to become the WEF Champ)

Martijn de Jong

He was solid at the international level (not just Brazil) and seen as the top guy at the time... I think most people regarded him as such in mid 2000.

In that same time frame - Silva had just lost to Ortiz but prior to that and leading up to that, he beat:

Mike Van Arsdale

Adrian Serrano

Eugene Jackson

Tony Paterra

Carl Malenko

Daijiro Matsui

Bob Schrijber

Not terribly more impressive then Pele. So by those merits, I would think Pele had the same credentials (at that time) of being the top guy for establishing a world champ.

And frankly, until Hughes defeated Newton and Sakurai... he was no more impressive (realistically even less impressive) than Menne was in terms of his wins and who they were against. As you pointed out, Sakurai even lost against Anderson, but we can make allowances in consideration based on reasonable logic. Realistically, Hughes did not become so dominant until after he captured your version of the linear world title.

So, if Hughes gets the nod as Champ based on his win over Sakurai... and Ortiz for defeating Silva... and we can provide allowances for things like Sakurai losing to Anderson AND we don't use our knowledge of what followed from those perticualr points in history, then I think it is a reasonable extension of those priciples to regard Menne as the champ after beating Pele in mid 2000. What followed for each fighter is irrelevant in deciding the champ at a specific period of time, if we indeed had a situation where a fight was worthy of crowning a linear champ.

That is my take

That's a pretty damn good argument, Rich. Good job.

 Good logic for the most part, braddahshano808.

It is clear that the "old" UFC middleweight division is the "current" LHW division, which is roughly the same as Pride's "current" middleweight division.

My take on things would be this:

Not really sure about the lighter divisions (never kept track of shooto).

As far as the "present" Middleweight division (based on UFC weight classes), I would say that Bustamante is the man, until beaten.  He took the title from Menne, raped Lindland (twice), and no one else has come close since.  (Jackson doesn't count - they were fighting at closer to 200 pounds for that fight, not 185 - and I doubt Jackson could cut to 185 if he WANTED to!!  So, that in my mind isn't a title fight - Bustamante is still the champ.  A fight versus Henderson is definitely warranted and desired, however!!)

As to Tito vs. Silva vs. Sakuraba, I've got to agree with your logic, but I also believe that Silva and the UFC LHW champ need to fight in the very near future.  Sakuraba has fought up in weight, so there IS a case to be made for Silva having lineage via defeating Sakurabe, but I have to disagree that he would destroy Tito or Randy - until they meet in the ring in PRESENT time, we'll never really know.  Vitor is now UFC champ, who inherited the title indirectly from Tito (via Randy), and - like Tito - Vitor has also beaten Silva in the past.  Now I know Silva has greatly improved, but so has Tito, so has Randy, and I suspect so has Vitor.
The only CLEAR way to resolve this, is to say that right now, Silva and Vitor each hold a belt and need to consolidate; They are "co-champions" of the weight class, as far as I'm concerned.  That's more of a mess than Middleweight is, in my opinion.  Warfrog brings up another good point - until the rules become uniform, there are some guys out there who win much more easily under one organization's set of rules, and probably lose easily under another's.



Busta lost to Henderson since he won the belt (Rampage too, but he is way to heavy)...

So, IMO Henderson is the linear champion for 185

When did Busta lose to Hendo??

If that happened, then I have to agree that Henderson is the uncrowned 185 champ!

Busta/Hendo was a single fight on the Pride GP Final card last year. Hendo KO'd him in under a minute.

How about it Bradda??? Does that work??? With trash talk going on between Hendo and Baroni, we may see Hendo state-side...

(probably even for the UFC belt - if the UFC is true to form)

Rich, Menne hasnt done much lately to deserve title contention(IMO).

When Pele beat Pat Pat was having back problems. He also was considered a natural 170lb fighter.

"Bahia" and Johil were two of my fave Brasilians but neither has had success outside of Brasil.

Faverus and de Jong both have spotty records and were never considered top ten material.

Van Arsdale, Serrano and Jackson were, i believe, all top ten at one time.

All things considered though, you do have a good arguement for Menne. He was one of my fave fighters at one time. He still a person. I guess i really should consider him but his KO loss to Busta was pretty bad(from a jab i think!?).

Yeah, i know Sak has also lost big to a 185lb guy in Elvis Schembri but, he still has a much better resume than Menne. Most of Menne's wins over top guys are by decision too.

If he can get back in the top ten with a BIG win then i'd surely consider him again. But eleven losses is not a good thing to have on one's record. He needs to win and win BIG!

Even if Sak wasnt considered it's still pretty much just Busta and Lindland for now.

Your one person i highly respect on this forum Rich...and i dont want to argue with you but...i just dont see Menne in the title picture right now. Let him get back in my top ten again and we'll see what happens. BTW- he did have a loss to someone after Busta didnt he?...i forgot who it was!? I think it was an unranked fighter. Correct me if i'm wrong.


braddah shano

No one is saying Menne is in the title picture right now.

"Your one person i highly respect on this forum Rich..."

--- And I appreciate that, and the respect is mutual.

"and i dont want to argue with you but..."

--- Hey, this is two MMA enthusiasts passing ideas around

"i just dont see Menne in the title picture right now."

--- I am not arguing that he should be in the picture NOW... I am illustrating that in 5/2000, we had a situation that warranted consideration for crowning a Linear Champion. As I said, we should not use our knowledge of what happened since then to determine if THAT bout at THAT time was worthy of kicking off the linear championship scene. We just need to look at what was going on up until that time...

To Further the point, Pele fought Miletich at 176 lbs (Pele never fought at 170... always 77 kg/176 lbs or higher).

I don't see a remarkable difference between Silva and Pele in being appropriate challengers in mid 2000 for starting the linear championship... likewise, Menne was legit at that time... By today's standards... "NO", Menne is not a top guy and is NOT a person that we would consider for starting the linear belt. But in 5/2000...

Also, my arguement was not that the Menne/Busta match should have been to start the linear champ... but rather it be a part of the linear champ history following from the 2000 bout between Menne and Pele.

Furthermore, about Saku - his losses in the past 2 years are not even an issue in where I am going with this... in 5/2000 Saku was winning... But as said, it was not really in 185 lbs bouts since most of his opponents were all 200 lbs and over.

In May of 2000 Menne was like 25-5 or in that ball park.

Up until that point beat Laverne Clark (twice), Dennis Hallman, Jesse Jones, Jutaru Nakao, and Chris Lytle. Leading up to the Pele bout, he won like 12 in a row (8 by TKO/Submission). He beat Pele, then even went on to win the Kuwaiti 8-man with Hughes, Pele, Newton (whom Mene beat), Barklaev... Now, I said we should not consider what followed from the Pele bout in determining if that bout should have been the linear champ bout, but if it wasn't... then that bout plus the Kuwati tourney should have made him the 185 lbs champ (not to mention that he beat Sakata and Traven before that).

This is not about Menne now, but the establishment of the linear champ in 5/2000 like Ortiz v. Silva in 4/2000

My opinion of the World Champs

over 265 = No History

205 - 265 = Fedor

185 - 205 = Belfort

170 - 185 = Henderson

155 - 170 = BJ

145 - 155 = Ludwig

135 - 145 = Pequeno

125 - 135 = Matsune

Rich... Your list is wrong. This is the most unbiased list.

over 265 = No History

205 - 265 = Fedor

185 - 205 = Silva (lol @ belfort, what has he done?)

170 - 185 = Kondo/hendo - (tossup)

155 - 170 = BJ (no question)

145 - 155 = Gomi (Since BJ moved up, the #2 guy takes the spot, also ludwig lost to Sudo)

135 - 145 = Kid Yamamoto (one of the most complete fighters in the game, KOed Murahama in K1!)

125 - 135 = Matsune

"--- I am not arguing that he should be in the picture NOW... I am illustrating that in 5/2000, we had a situation that warranted consideration for crowning a Linear Champion. As I said, we should not use our knowledge of what happened since then to determine if THAT bout at THAT time was worthy of kicking off the linear championship scene. We just need to look at what was going on up until that time..."

Rich, again, you have a very good arguement but...i just dont see that ANYONE was worthy of title contention for 185lbs in 5/2000.

Besides, hasn't Hendo fought mostly between 185-200lbs?

BTW- Most of those wins of Menne's were against 170lb'ers...of the opponents you mentioned...i think only Lytle and Jones fought at higher weights.

i saw his fight against Nakao(live) was ok but not impressive.

lol @ "when i made Tito champ", that statement pretty much sums up this whole thread: one guy trying to pass off his opinions as some sort of legitimate rankings...

Hey, I like this kind of thought... It is far from REALITY, but even if some consider it inaccurate, it is a very thoughtful approach to regarding linear World Champions amid the chaos of disparit organizations, diverse rules structures, fighters that do not cross over organization boundaries to face each other, and political hoopla.

I think that most of the positions made by Bradda are good and thought provoking. He obviously has fun developing these rankings and shares them regularly. It is a subjective approach, but fairly logical (even if it is not perfect)... However, it is my "opinion" that there is clear inconsistancy in crediting certain fighters and bouts as starting linear world titles and not others, where similar criteria are present.