"Everytime another hilariously bad Systema video is posted, jelly always uses that line or something similiar."
Pretty much.
"Would be pretty hard to defend a rear naked choke when the guy puts his fingers in your eyeballs and manually lifts your head back."
But that is a very good point.
"Would be pretty hard to defend a rear naked choke when the guy puts his fingers in your eyeballs and manually lifts your head back."
But then again, It might make it easier for an experienced grappler to get a two on one hold on the wrist of the hand that is going for the eyes, which makes it easier to escape from that position. I know that most guys in the street are not trained, but I'm just saying.........
I actually really liked the Demetry Furman videos on youtube, so much so, I'll probably link to them from my techniques page on my site because I think they teach some things that could definately be useful to grapplers/martial artists, regardless of their skill level.
However, my view of Sistema hasn't changed. I think it's one of those systems where you either have to be a very talented martial artist, or an already experienced martial artist to make it effective.
UK throwdown, write-up:
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page53.html
video clip:
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/Pgslo.wmv
Nitecrawler
The asian fellow win the red shorts is the systema guy.
At that time he had signed up to a sub wrestling school for one lesson. ie, his sub moves are all from VV's classes.
You see what you see as a weakness is a strength. Vlad is just one guy and at first very view people knew of him in Toronto, like 10. When I go to Vlad's, I don't know if the newby I'm facing is experienced or not.
Yeah, there's a couple vids of me on there too. My youtube handle is TheTypenator.
"But then again, It might make it easier for an experienced grappler to get a two on one hold on the wrist of the hand that is going for the eyes, which makes it easier to escape from that position."
Ah, but systema is not technique driven. Use the eyes as a handle and if the guy moves with it, you move with that, etc. etc. You can counter a lapel grab, but lapel grabs aren't always bad. Nothing is 100%.
"I actually really liked the Demetry Furman videos on youtube, so much so, I'll probably link to them from my techniques page on my site because I think they teach some things that could definately be useful to grapplers/martial artists, regardless of their skill level."
Praise for one of the systema instructors and value for his systema lessons (very brief snippets of).
"However, my view of Sistema hasn't changed. I think it's one of those systems where you either have to be a very talented martial artist, or an already experienced martial artist to make it effective."
So you think what an instructor is teaching (systema) is valuable for everyone "regardless of skill level", but you think that you have to be experienced to to get value from it?
Sounds awfully conflicted to me.
Re the guy's response
"Fast Forward to two months later and the systema fuckheads are using my DVD (I own the intellectual rights to it) and video clips without my permission and stating that it shows Paul beating up a "MMA fighter"?
MMA fighter? who's that? certainly not me mate! Im, at best, an RBMA instructor"
As I recall, that's what the add copy this guy put up said.
And I've seen nothing on youtube that this guy didn't put up himself.
I bought the DVD off him via e-bay myself. Nah, he couldn't deal with the trollery.
WTF happened at these Gracie schools where Systema is ok to bash, but he doesn't want to get into GJJ?
"plowed some guy in the mush"
lol...
Must have a mean backmount imo.
"Cool, thanks for the info Jelly. Reason I ask about your clips, and no I am not being condescending or an asshole, is that I don't see any "Systema" movement in your striking or whatever. I mean granted I am not a systema practioner so maybe I just don't see it but when I see all those systema demoes with the flowing movements and what not...well...I guess that's kinda what I expected to see, even a little bit, when a systema guy spars."
You mean when Vladimir spars. I don't look like Vladimir, I look like me. Systema is about being yourself. This is what I'm like in Vlad's class. Any deficiencies are my problem.
I also consciously fought cleaner than I would at Vlad's, because I wasn't sure of the rules. The last guy who fought sparred at the throwdown and strayed caused a screaming fit. I didn't want to cause offense.
Also, if I'm fighting someone bigger and faster than me, I'm going to shell up more.
Now, the thing is I also made some conscious decisions in my approach: I normally don't use gloves
"As far as the dude in the sprawls, he looked pretty impressive for only one lesson of sub grappling. "
Yeah, he learned all that in one lesson lol. He also did I think 2 years of systema where you wrestle like that all the time...
"However, I think the other kid was lying about his tourney experience considering the systema kid was tooling him at will."
Well, if you think it means the bullshido crowd in Toronto are a bunch of liars because a systema guy tooled one of them, that's your opinion. But they seemed a pretty honest bunch to me.
Also concerning that write up it was written by a systema guy, for a systema site, and is his personal account of the day.
"Plus the video clip is a 15 second slow motion shot of the systema guy landing a lazy punch, so I'm not really sure what that proves."
I mentioned a punch in the mouth. You asked for a clip. You're welcome.
There's other systema guys in previous throwdowns on youtube.
"Praise for one of the systema instructors and value for his systema lessons (very brief snippets of). "
"So you think what an instructor is teaching (systema) is valuable for everyone "regardless of skill level", but you think that you have to be experienced to to get value from it?"
Yes, praise for the Sistema Instructor. I don't know Demetry's background so I'm not going to attribute everything he does to Sistema. He appears to me to have training in other forms of grappling.
And Jelly Man, what do you expect? Most of the Sistema Vids out there (some with Vladimir in them) show a bunch of guys flailing around like a fish out of water at the slightest touch. Is one good video supposed to change my view right away. Sistema's critiscisms are well deserved.
The kid in the sprawls is my brother, LOL. He's a bouncer in Toronto and systema seems to work well for him and his co-workers on the job.
I dont know much about systema ot whatever the hell...
... but what i do know is ALL the grappling on ALL the vids on this thread is pretty freakin horrible!
Good thread. Many thanks to Ritchie for taking the time to explain all that, even if it wasn't originally intended for the rest of us.
Here's an interesting thread on Systema: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36200&highlight=systema
Here's another interesting thread. It was started by someone who says that they trained sistema for a few years at Vladimir's school:http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52259&highlight=systema
I found this quote very interesting:
"In summary... Systema on its own is a joke. The Principles can be applied by someone who has training in other forms of combat, but on its own, it is worthless. Let this be a final nail in the coffin to the already dying debate on Systema. I seasoned student of Vladimir himself has come out to share his experience, so I hope I am seen by Systema apologists as credible."
ttt
ttt
"Yes, praise for the Sistema Instructor. I don't know Demetry's background so I'm not going to attribute everything he does to Sistema."
He's teaching a systema class to systema students. He teaches systema at Vlads. WTF do you want???
"A top student at Vladimir's school, with 3 years of Systema training."
Yeah, that's it, a TOP STUDENT lol
This is the bullshido thread that ended up with me going to a throwdown btw.
"I don't know anyone where I currently train who hasn't tested themselves somewhere outside the gym to gauge their skill level. It may have been a grappling tournament, weekly fight night, some small mma show, other schools, or at work if they're a bouncer.
That's how performance-based instruction works, right? You try it out to see if it really works"
"The kid in the sprawls is my brother, LOL. He's a bouncer in Toronto and systema seems to work well for him and his co-workers on the job."
The three year top student maybe was one in his head...
"Is one good video supposed to change my view right away. "
No. You should find a good instructor and try him out.
From reading your posts, Jellyman, it's quite obvious you are more than familar with systema.
OK, can you explain to me what is the difference, then, between mma and systema?
As Matt Thornton would say, MMA gives you a sense of timing, motion, and resistance. Nothing prepares you for being punched in the face like being punched in the face. The same goes for rolling. So, what does systema offer that typical mma training does not?
I should note I frequented two schools -- one in NYC and one in Long Island -- both under the same ownership, and I walked out disappointed. Why is it that MMA doesn't appear to suffer from the typical mcdojo labeling as, say, systema? I could probably walk into most or any MMA gym in the USA and receive at least decent training. Yet, this is not seem to hold true for systema, at least from my understanding.
Furthermore, if systema is so great, why doesn't the russian military practice it, or so I've read?
The problem with arts like systema is people have misconceptions and misunderstandings. The detractors feel like these marketers are putting arts like systema on a pedistal, like it'll turn you into superman or something. It has this mysteriousness, this auora about it that makes it special and therefore superior to anything else. It just comes across like another Dim Mak scheme.
The thing is this: MMA is nothing new. People have been fighting the same way since the dawn of man. The three phases -- stand-up, clinch, and the ground -- were employed by ancient greece and rome as they are today. There are no secrets.
Even if systema was used in russian military (would appreciate some written proof that it was), there has never been a war won by martial arts. Wars are won by and fought with strategy and technology. If you peak at applegate or fairburn, wwII combatives, the techniques were simple and few. It's not so much about techniques, but about intent, aggression, and explosiveness. The intent to injure or kill is something the military is very good at teaching, something that is mental, not physical.
What can systema offer for the person who is not into this street fighting mentality? If you wish to be a bouncer, vip security, LE, military, okay, if your decision is to study systema, then that's your decision. But for the person who does not have the mindset of, "today's the day I get into a street fight", where does systema fit, I ask you?
Do you classify systema as a type of RBSD? Does it not feed those who are paranoid and fearful with more paranoia and fear, the type who worry about getting into a street fight?
Thank you very much.