Kneeblock: Mishima's a lightweight (Unless he's planning to move up in weight)....He has competed against opponents from other weight divisions. He fought Takafumi Ito and Tetsuji Kato, who are both welterweights. He also fought Masakazu Imanari and Fabio Mello, who are both featherweights.
Examine the recent opponents of Palaszewski and Aurelio.
They're pretty close as far as recent records go.
In their last half-dozen fights;
Palaszewski is 6-0 against guys otherwise 23-7
Aurelio is 5-1 against guys otherwise 19-5-1
Pretty close, but slight edge to Palaszewski.
"Palaszewski is 6-0 against guys otherwise 23-7 Aurelio is 5-1 against guys otherwise 19-5-1. Pretty close, but slight edge to Palaszewski."
Look at who they fought though. Aurelio has wins over Imanari, Clementi, Remigijus Morkevicius, and Gardner. Compared to Mark Long, Jason Bender, Ton Kirk, and Jay Estrada. Aurelio by a mile.
"Why isn't Kawajiri above Edwards? He beat him recently.
Mishima has beaten King of Leglocks imanari, Shooto star Tetsuji Kato, ryan bow etc. and he's not on that list?
Gomi loses to the P4P #1 fighter in the world and suddenly drops 9 spots? LOL.
Imanari is not a featherweight, he fought in the ZST 155 tournmanet. "
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Voters don't seem to care for Kawajiri over Edwards. Maybe most people think it was a fluke? Maybe Kawajiri doesn't have the exposure? I don't know their reasons, but Kawajiri doesn't get close the number of votes that Yves does.
Now if we examine records, and I mean a big picture, not just that one fight between them...
In their last 6 fights
Edwards is 5-1 against opponents otherwise 20-6
Kawajiri is 5-1 against opponents otherwise 17-10-2
So that's how Yves comes out ahead of Kawajiri.
....
Gomi is #7 so I don't understand your point about him dropping 9 spots. ??? And he didn't just lose to Penn, he lost to Hansen as well, so yes the two losses have dropped him SIX spots.
....
Imanari was in the ZST tourney, but not at 155 pounds. Morkevicius was also in the tourney weighing around 145.
fair enough. I understand that this is a NA american ranking... Obviously they will favor fighters that they are more familiar with.
Hendo is usually ranked as a LHW, as is Sakuraba, because they fight there, that is my point about Imanari etc.
Everybody will have different rankings anyways.
Gollum,
I'm not saying your, (or Bill's), opinion is wrong. What I'm telling you is that of the 64 votes I've got in the last couple of months Serra doesn't have half the votes that Yves does. Considering I delete any entries that are obvious frauds, 64 reasonable entries is a pretty good concensous.
Add to that the statistical side, where a 6-fight profile has;
Yves 5-1 vs. guys who are otherwise 20-6
Serra's opponents are otherwise 23-9-1 but he's only 3-3 against them.
So on both the stat side and the voter side, Serra is far behind Yves.
Serra doesn't have much voter support and neither do Palaszewski or Defranco, (given that votes are submitted as a top 10, not a top 15).
So superior records like Palaszewski's and Defranco's keep Serra off the board.
.....
As for Penn... Having a fighter in two different weight classes led to problems with some fighters only get half votes for each. ex. During his Pride exile, half the people would vote for Newton as a WW, and the other half would vote him as a MW. So to keep it simple and unilateral, everyone goes in one division only, and it's the division their last fight was in.
Bill,
I know what you mean, but the question is, were Yves Edwards next opponents "local level", or just unfamiliar names?
He beat Agallar, a 7-0 fighter. He beat another undefeated fighter, someone a lot of people in Canada consider to be a top prospect, in Kultar Gill. He beat seasoned vet Rich Clementi in the octagon after the Serra loss as well.
All that said, there's nothing wrong with opinion being that Serra should be higher than Yves. If you feel that, that's fine. The majority doesn't agree at this point, that's all.
"Look at who they fought though. Aurelio has wins over Imanari, Clementi, Remigijus Morkevicius, and Gardner. Compared to Mark Long, Jason Bender, Ton Kirk, and Jay Estrada. Aurelio by a mile. "
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Why would that be? Do you mean "name value"?
I can certainly appreciate that you may have more knowledge and appreciation for the Japanese fighters than the American fighters, but why would beating people with inferior records be considered more credible?
"Why would that be? Do you mean "name value"?"
They are proven fighters with proven records. Clementi beat undefeated Kotani, Taisho, and ko'ed Weidler in under a minute. Remigijus has the best knees in the game arguably and smashed everyone he fought. Gardner just beat Clementi about a week or 2 ago. Imanari tapped Jorge Gurgel under 30 seconds.
Ludwig is too high, and Sudo should be above him. Belfort might have a "W" over Couture, but I still wouldn't rank him above Couture.
Mishima should be on that list.
Thomson and Franca should be higher.
Edwards is way too high, he's lost to most of the top fighters he's faced.
How did Gomi drop so low so fast?
who is #10?? someone from your gym??
"Ludwig is too high, and Sudo should be above him. Belfort might have a "W" over Couture, but I still wouldn't rank him above Couture.
Mishima should be on that list.
Thomson and Franca should be higher.
Edwards is way too high, he's lost to most of the top fighters he's faced.
How did Gomi drop so low so fast?
who is #10?? someone from your gym?? "
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Given that Ludwig was judged the winner of the fight vs. Sudo, (granted from an assist). Remembering that Ludwig beat Pulver who was considered by many to be #1 at the time. Why would Ludwig not be ahead of Sudo, who hasn't beaten anyone with a respectable resume?
I love Sudo, he's probably my personal favourite, but facts are facts.
Yves has only lost once renectly. He also beat Nick Agallar, who although a lot of people don't know him or acknowledge him, he had outstanding credentials.
Gomi dropped on the tail of two straight losses. The only person listed above Gomi who has 2 recent losses is Uno. Uno's competition is miles above Gomi's.
#10 is Palaszewski, a perfect example of how there are guys tearing it up without getting the PPV recognition. Did you know Tim Sylvia had 13 straight wins before getting into the UFC? Did you know Nogueira was 11-1-1 before getting into Pride? Franca was 6-0 before getting in UFC. Ribiero is 9-0 and still isn't in the "big-two".
The point is, there is life outside of those 2 shows, and it's BS to presume that these guys aren't as good just because it doesn't say UFC on the mat when they fight.
Palaszewski has beat 2 tournament winners, so it's not like he's just racking up wins against clueless fighters.
It's time to recognize these people, and not just rely on Dana White and Joe Silva to tell us who the best are.
Oh, and no, I don't know Palaszewski personally. His achievements speak for themselves.
"He beat Agallar, a 7-0 fighter."
Agallar wasn't 7-0. He had 2 losses before he fought Edwards.
Aurelio's competition has by far been better than Palaszewski's. Perhaps stat-wise Palaszewski's opponents looked better, but you also have to consider who his opponents had beaten. Aurelio's opponents fought better competition in general.
Like I said, it's interesting to look at the rankings due to the way they're done, but by no means is it a universal ranking system as it's flawed......And it's doubtful any kind of ranking system involving stats in MMA will ever be perfect. There are just too many variables to consider.
"Agallar wasn't 7-0. He had 2 losses before he fought Edwards.
Aurelio's competition has by far been better than Palaszewski's. Perhaps stat-wise Palaszewski's opponents looked better, but you also have to consider who his opponents had beaten. Aurelio's opponents fought better competition in general. "
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Sorry, that should have said he was on a 7-0 streak.
The opponents of your opponents is definitely factored in. In fact, it continues on down.
Two of Palaszewski's opponents have won tournaments, so you know that they were fighting other winners en route to the tourney finals.
Please note that Aurelio and Palaszewski are very close. Neither has much voter support at this point, and Bart has Aurelio as far as their 6-0 vs. 5-1 recent records go.
The best thing to do is vote. Every little bit helps, and can move Auerlio up toward where you think he should be.
WHERE THE HELL IS MATT SERRA HE SHOULD HAVE MAD TOP 5 AT LEAST.
Interesting that Shaolin is rated No.1 yet his toughest opponent yet, Ivan Menjivar, (according to Shaolin) is not even considered in the top 15.
In addition to getting no love from the voters, being 3-3 in his most recent fights doesn't help Serra any.
Submit a vote, that's all I can say. As long as it's realistic, it will be included.
Menjivar has since returned to fighting at 145, though I suspect he'll be back up to 155 for a shot in the UFC. We'll deal with Menjivar at 155 once he has that UFC fight.
I think you have contradicted yourself a bit in some of your rankings. Duane Ludwig, as you acknowledged, is ranked high, in part, because of a controversial victory that led to a rule change. Josh Thomson had a much less controversial win over Franca, yet was placed lower than Franca anyway, despite their fight being the last one either fighter has had. You also downgrade Joachi Hansen's win over Rumina Sato because Sato, as you put it, was in a losing streak, yet the other reason Ludwig is so high is because he beat Pulver when he was on top...but no mention of the subsequent losing streak from Pulver in regards to Ludwig?
isn't javi retired?????
what about crane????
ttt for Santino.