More knowledge Ryron/Rener or Danaher?

But – in terms of the topic of the thread-- how many years has Roger been training vs how many years has Gordon been training…?

That’s the thing about Danaher, he can make elite grapplers much more quickly.

If Danaher took over a Romanian orphanage or something and trained kids from infancy, as the Gracie family does with family members, I think the advantage of Danaher’s approach would be even more obvious.

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Roger’s game was basic and attribute-dependent as well.

That’s basically part of the plot for the anime “monster”

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Best part is, we can take advantage of all of them.

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“more knowledge” is a tricky argument to make. I think danaher is an eccentric genius, and probably a bit on the spectrum, so his brain works differently. He isn’t constrained by the rules of traditional BJJ so he can explore positions and techniques that were taboo in Brazil 40 years ago. The Gracie’s teach what their father and grandfather taught and their knowledge on that topic is expert level. I think the 2 can learn a lot from each other but neither is more knowledgeable about BJJ than the other IMO

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I mean Relson sent his son to learn from Ryron & Rener, that says something right there.

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As always, shen nailed it. I’ve never trained under Danaher but I have done a few seminars with both Ryron and Ralek. Those boys know their art inside and out, that is for certain. I learned an incredible level of detail on seemingly simple techniques from them that have stuck with me for years. I cannot say anything bad about their instruction in a class setting. They simply have a depth of knowledge on the subject that is hard to compare to anything else really.

Having said that, Danaher also has a ridiculously deep knowledge and understanding. I think he is an evolution, the new way, where the Gracies teach the “old way.” Anyone would be privileged to train under either.

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Exactly. Ryron and Rener have a mastery and depth of understanding of Helio Gracie Jiu Jitsu. No one knows it as well as them. Danaher has a mastery and deep understanding of Renzo’s BJJ (basically the old Gracie Barra) as well as other stuff he has delved into like wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and he’s created systems out of them that rely on creating dilemmas.

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No it doesn’t you retard

Love me some John Donahue.

Fabio Gurgel is more knowledgable than both, has created many more champions, and actually fought unlike the couch sitters you’re discussing.

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You think Gurgel knows more than Danaher? He’s certainly one of the few that I’d put up there right next to Danaher, but you think he knows even more than Danaher? Gurgel certainly deserves credit for being a legendary competitor as well as an incredibly successful teacher.

Gurgel strikes me as more of a great team coach than someone known for their technical prowess like Danaher. His athletes seem to have really made their own styles, whereas Danaher’s guys tend to follow similar games. I mean his nickname is “the General” and he’s giving motivational speeches at corporations nowadays. Could you imagine danaher giving a speech at your company townhall? He’d probably fit in better in the accounting department.

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Gurgle is the alliance guy with the receding hairline, right? It’s been so long since I’ve heard that name or even followed BJJ

Gurgel is obviously a Master-Level coach. I actually PREFER the Gurgel approach where you teach BJJ and let your students develop their OWN game, rather than prescribing to them exactly what to do point-by-point in every situation, in a very set, structured manner.

But, I concede to anyone that when you’re talking about elite sport BJJ, figuring out the “right” game-plan for the moment --reacting to what other teams are doing currently-- does become more important.

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danaher is a living legend, that’s undeniable, but before we put him amongst the greats he’s gonna have to make lighting strike twice. At least 50% of that credit has to go to the DDS. Gordon is an autistic savant.

By that metric, Lloyd Irvin is up there with him

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Im a huge Fabio Gurdel fan this this isn’t a knock on him. He along with Mario Sperry were my favorite sport BJJ competitors in the mid 90’s. That being said, I doubt your argument for several reasons. lineage Helio-Rolls-Jacare Cavaalcanti-Fabio. Hello-Ryron/Rener. Creating Champions in a sport that is mostly won by an advantage now a days isn’t more knowledgeable. Although Marcelo was a finisher. But if we are using competition as a measure who in MMA has Fabio produced? Some people feel that’s a more important expression of true BJJ. Rener produced T-City who has fought twice for the featherweight UFC title, way bigger than anything in sport jiu jitsu or no go both in notorietyand money. As far a couch sitters yes Danaher didn’t compete but Ryron and Rener went against Crosley, Laimon, Werneck, Galvao, Barnett. Thats hardly is couch sitting.

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The only real answer here:

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I’d people think that Danaher’s style is long winded I’d welcome them to watch the 35+ hours of material on the Blue Belt stripe one Gracie University course. Then follow that up with the s2-4 courses

Excellent information. Like super top notch but let’s put it into perspective lol

This will sound ultra blasphemous but aside from the self defense aspect of it, what does lineage of directly getting a BB from Helio do for you? While Helio probably has some amazing details on jiu jitsu, I don’t think he was teaching or cared about the various guards or passing. Actually, I don’t think I’ve even seen footage of Helio passing. I know the famous Gracie gift pass and I’ve seen a lot of people doing it but I don’t think I’ve seen Helio doing it. Though, it’s not like Ryron/Rener haven’t learned any modern jiu jitsu as they train with some champions.

As you said, it depends how you feel and/or define what’s important for jiu jitsu. Some may not care that T-City is doing MMA as it’s not pure jiu jitsu.

Fabio has had more champions than just Marcelo. Bruno, Cobrinha, Bernardo, Lepri. Fabio, himself, is a world champion.

Ryron and Rener did well competing at black belt in an IBJJF tournament as brown belts - I think they won 3 matches each? The only ding on them, competing wise, outside of the ibjjf is it’s always some customized ruleset. From the SoCal Pro-AM to the never released Gracie Tournament where Monson beat Rener(I think it was Rener?) within their ruleset to the Gracie Nationals where they were allowed to slam (the infamous incident where Ryron ko’d Cameron Earle on a guard slam - I thought Ryron was being really nice about it by giving Cameron a look before he slammed him, etc… there was always some twist to the rules they wanted.

Having said all that, I respect and admire everyone listed here, they’ve all done something different for the sport and have helped advanced it far beyond any impact I’ve ever done for BJJ.

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