You NEED mastery to pull that sh!t off in a fight.
Just because someone can get away with a technique, doesn’t mean that technique is good idea for the “average” player.
It’s in the realm of boxing with your hands down; something very skilled boxers can sometimes get away with, but a bad idea for the "average " boxer.
And the average…or vast majority of bjjers dont even train to use jiujitsu in fighting.
Wurm guard 4 life, yo.
Can “having more knowledge” be indicated by the quality of students produced?
I don’t think Ryron, Rener, or Danaher have ever won any titles. So how would this be quantified?
I think these are totally different topics. “Quality of students” produced probably would get (mis)interpeted as titles won by students.
Some “famous guys” put zero effort into producing high-level competitors, while with others, that’s their whole mission.
Compare Rickson to Fabio Gurgel in terms of who they have produced.
I’m sure Fabio would say Rickson is “The King” and all that, but look at HOW many world champions Fabio’s Produced. I can’t even count them. His students are legends. Whereas Rickson doesn’t seem to have put nearly as much attention in that direction. Students of Students of students of
Rickson have produced way more champions than Rickson himself.
Maybe Rickson is ultimately more knowledgeable than Fabio, I don’t really know, but if you want to be a black belt world champion, you’d be well advised to seek out Gurgel (or a dozen other coaches) over Rickson.
A really good coach who is very giving of his time and energy is worth way more than the world’s greatest jiu jitsu expert who’s just not all that into spending time helping you.
‘Knowledge’ without the desire to pass it on, means nothing.
I agree with alot you wrote(and a big part of why i think rickson is overrated on multiple fronts) but your last line feels to me like it undermines everything else you wrote. Passing the knowledge on seems more imperative than having your students win titles. If you guys want to be using this criteria then perhaps you should look at how many blackbelts someone produces. I still dont 100% believe that necessarily correlates with knowledge base which was the original topic.
Heck the last line i quoted could be interpreted as an endorsement for the manufacturing line we all loathe from gracie barra and gracie academy online belts.
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I kinda changed horses midstream.
Great post, imo. I remember training in socal in the early 2000s and said to my friend “I wish we could go train with Rickson.” His reply really stuck with me…he said”who’s he produced?” I remember thinking right then and there that there’s a big difference between a great practitioner and a great teacher…and one doesn’t automatically mean the other.
Rickson didnt even teach his own son
‘Knowledge’ without the desire to pass it on, means nothing.
I agree with this.
Who is conveying their knowledge in the most effective and meaningful way?
They both seem to have found a sweet spot in online instructionals.
Personally, I’ve found Danahers instruction to resonate a lot more than Ryron and Reners. Probably the biggest difference I can think is the level of emphasis Danaher puts on actually being able to break someone as opposed to merely “getting the tap”. It’s been a while since I’ve watched an armbar instructional from Ryron and Rener, but from what I remember, and the details I came away with from watching it, fell more on how to get someone to tap to an armbar. Danaher went into detail on how to actually break someone at the arm.
Renner & Ryron have just as much detail and understanding as Danaher, but more overall knowledge because if their defensive tactics focus and actually competed on the mat and put their skills to they test as teens in the early Gracie challenge matches. Danaher maintains that he’s never competed once in a jiu jitsu comp. I’d learn sport techniques from either, but I would never go to Danaher for a mma fight or police tactics training.
Rener put out some total bs how to prevent a kidnapping tutorial on morning news. It included a total bs way to choke the kidnapper around the headrest of drivers seat. Average female wont pull that off and it seemed more like he just wanted to show a movr he toyed around with in a car
Danaher has supposedly used his Jiu-jitsu in his bouncer days, as well as being in GSP’s corner in many of his fights.
Maybe, but the video he put out for nurses about how to counter being choked by a stethoscope is gonna save a lot of lives!
Never really heard Danaher put bad knowledge out into the world
Rener is a marketing guy. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing. If he observes what is happening in the outside non martial artists world and can see how is art can be part of a solution, that’s a good thing.
Danaher is the guy that uses his doctoral studies in philosophy and world experiences as a bouncer/coach and develops ideas on his art. His real strength is his ability to physically communicate his ideas.
The problem with what Rener teaches, against weapon attacks for example, is that it is irresponsible. It’s NOT truly ‘part of a solution’.
He is chained to a VERY specific curriculum. It’s about bringing the same old product (Helio Gracie BJJ) to a bunch of new applications, no matter what. It’s not really about honest solutions, it’s about selling the same solution to everyone. which is marketing & sales, but when you are potentially talking about people’s lives you need to use more care than that. You have to have a higher sense of ethics than a normal salesman.
Classical Gracie Jiu Jitsu is NOT the best answer for ALL combative situations. Sometimes other approaches make more sense.
I have no doubt Danaher, would come up with a better, more realistic Weapon defense program in a few months. That’s because Danaher is free to look at a problem and find a solution, see what works, make changes & modification based on testing. He is not bound by tradition.[BTW… this approach has already been done by a number of different BJJ teachers, like Luis Gutierrez and his ISR Matrix system, etc.]
The Gracies aren’t that free. They can’t radically break with the past. They have to find a way to shoehorn-in what they already teach, and have been teaching for decades, no matter if it makes the most sense or not. This attachment to these anachronistic techniques, creates the insanity we see of “stethoscope choke counters for nurses” and people literally being taught to try and put armed attackers in standing joint-locks.
The funny thing, in a real violent confrontation Danaher believes in putting someone down on the floor (while he stays standing) and kicking them viciously until they are incapacitated. Not doing an armlock, strangle or leglock.
The Gracie brothers are like Tony Robbins while Danaher is like Brian Tracy.