my concern for the HG

a lot of discussion has been going on the last couple weeks and here are a couple passages i think are extremely relevant and important.

2 cor 11 -

1I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.

Galatians 3

Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[1] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[2] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[3] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[4] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[5] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[6] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Law and the Promise

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[7] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[8] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Sons of God

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

these verses specifically!

"For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted,"

"13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,"

I'm sorry...what?

thanks mask!!

I'm 99% sure that I understand


What Did Jesus Teach About The Relationship Of A Jewish Believer To The Torah?

He said that as long as the sun and the stars held their courses, not the smallest letter or stroke would disappear from the Torah or the Prophets "until all was accomplished"

He addresses the question of whether His coming and work were intended to nullify the Torah or the Prophets by commanding us not to think so.

Resurrection isn't the point at which all was accomplished because the sun and moon are still in the heavens up to this day. There is really no ground which exists for claimingthat these verses mean anything other than what they plainly state.

Arguments that attempt to nullify the clear sense of this passage are extensive twisting of the direct statements, or turning it into allegory. Jesus meant what is stated here.

The least directive of the Torah was not negated by His coming:

the curse of the Law was altered by His coming (Galatians 3:13). We are no longer "under the tutor" described in Galatians (a tutor imposes knowledge on a trainee from the outside, then punishes him when he screws up).

Via the New Covenant, we now have the Torah written in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31, Ezekiel 36:24). We are no longer under the tutor because He is now within us (John 14:17). Almost all of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the coming of the New Covenant speak of the Torah being written on our hearts, and our being moved by the in-dwelling of God's Spirit to "walk in My statutes and obey My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:27/Jeremiah 31:31).

Why would the Word teach us upon salvation 99% of the statutes and ordinances in the Torah are things we can casually discard at will?

Some of the statutes and ordinances have truly been rendered impossible by God (because of the destruction of the Temple and the priestly lineage-records); and some cannot be practiced because we no longer live in a theocracy ( we do exact the death penalty for adultery).

We cannot impose the Torah upon a modern non-theocratic, non-Israeli society. But those are things outside our control and personal ability to choose.

Matthew 5 talks about people advocating the abandonment of the practice of the Torah which is within the reach of Jews living outside of Israel, where all of the Temple-related Torah was not possible to practice in any case.


Practice is the issue

Jesus went on to say that any people who abandons the practice of the least of the commandments (mitzvoht) and teaches others to do the same, shall be least in the kingdom of heaven. He seemed to be saying that you will not lose your salvation over an unscriptural relationship to the Torah as a Jewish believer, but you can severely affect your personal destiny.

Jesus' rebuke directed towards a the Pharisees in Matt 23:23 is used to support the notion that Jesus said an end to the entire Torah by ending practices like tithing. I know I have heard it used this way anyways, and I am beginning to see how its a good example of Scriptures being misinterperted. Jesus ended His statement by calling for an end to hypocrasy, not tithing. Its clear "These things you should have done, and not neglected the others."

When Jesus healed on the Sabbath, He did not change the commandment of the Sabbath; He was just challanging the rabbinic interpretation of the Sabbath, which had been far removed from the intent of the Torah, so much so that certain rabbi's would not even allow a person to be healed on the day of rest. (Luke 13:14-16) The Spirit of the Sabbath in fact being violated, and we were being taught that legalistic bondage and insensitivity on the sabbath were not what was intended.

Nowhere does Jesus teach or example that either abandoning the Torah, or teaching others to do so, is God's will; and since Jesus was addressing an almost exclusively Jewish audience, His meaning was clear. The rulings of His apostles later confirm this.


What Did the Apostles Teach About Jewish Believers Relationship To The Torah?

Did Jeus Resurrection Change things now are Different After Jesus' Death Than Before It?

The Apostles taught (after the Resurrection of Jesus) that for Jewish believers, it was God's will that they retain their Torah-life and Jewish cultural life which did not conflict with Scripture.

What confused the Jewish believers is that the Apostles did not make this a rule for the gentile believers These accounts are recorded in Acts 15 and Acts 21. So lets see what they say

After Paul had won masses of gentiles to faith in who he believed was the Messiah, the question was whether or not the gentile believers had to "become Jews" by being circumcised, adopting the practice of the Law, and observing Jewish ceremonial and festival commandments (Acts 15:5).

They concluded that God's will was not for gentiles to become Jews: it was for the gentiles to receive salvation. As long as the non-Jews who believed repented from general immorality and idolatrous practices, they did not need to adopt all that God has given to the Jewish nation by way of covenant obligations. (Acts 15:19-20)

The gentiles being involved in Jewish practice is made voluntary in verse 21, it shows the Jewish synagogual worship was available everywhere. If they wish to practice their faith in a Jewish context they have the means within reach to do so. I think its important the Apostles never once condemn the existence or the use of Jewish worship practices.

This agrees with the teaching of the Torah, nowhere does it provide any mechanism by which a gentile can "become a Jew". Biblically, in the torah there is no such thing as "conversion," if the word conversion is taken to mean making a gentile into an actual Jew. The most they can attain is the standing of what the Torah calls essentially a male or female, ger or gera. This definition of a person is a gentile who feels a calling to live among the Jewish people, and adopt the ways and practices of them . While God commands the Jewish people to treat such a person in a totally non-discriminatory way, also drawn are certain limitations upon the ingrafting. One example is that the ger can eat certain foods not permitted to the Jewish people (Deuteronomy 14:21). Non-Jews were permitted to affix themselves to the Jewish nation, and participate in its spiritual inheritence, but they were never made "Jewish" (a blood-descendant of Abraham) by that choice.

Paul does go out of his way to defend the Gentiles from the error of seeking salvation through observance of Jewish custom and rite, In Jerusalem he has to disprove rumors that he was "teaching Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, not to circumcise their sons, nor to observe the customs." (Acts 21:21)
I think this verse also helps to clear up the issue a lot.

There are two components that are covered here:

  • It was said Paul was teaching Jews who live among non-Jews to forsake the Torah, and even the rite of circumcision given to Abraham by God.

  • Paul was teaching the Jews who live among non-Jews to forsake the customs of the Jewish people.

It is very important to remember that Acts 21:15-25 is a biblical treatment of these doctrinal issues for all time. Even if centuries of tradition and practice indicate otherwise, if the Scriptures teach otherwise, it is the centuries of tradition which must be abandoned, not the teaching of God.

The first accusation was that Paul was teaching Jews to abandon the Torah. If this was his opinion, then would have been the perfect time to state it. The Apostles could have demanded that Paul make a clear statement to Jerusalem's Jewish leadership that he was standing for a new way, one in which Jewish customs and even Torah observance were obsolete for Jewish believers, But he did not. Instead, the Council made the exact opposite decision. They tell him that these lies must be shown to be not true, and they provide a plan to follow which will make clear demonstration to all of Jerusalem that

"... concerning these things which they were told about you are nothing; but that you yourself still walk in order, keeping the law"

So, what is unclear about this at all? Both the issues of Torah observance and Jewish custom are raised, and we are given the opinions of the Apostles, James, and Paul. They do not disagree on this.

Some people say it is ok for Jewish believers to retain the Acts 21 stuff because it is "Abrahamic", or pre-dating the Mosaic Law: but thats not what the Apostles did in Acts 21. They dealt with circumcision ,the Torah, and Jewish customs in one lump. Their focus was the preservation of the Jewish faith and national identities in the face of a new phase of the plan of God.

They also agreed, in Acts 15, that heritage of Israel is not binding upon non-Jews: only the general moral and anti-idolatrous directives given there and repeated in Acts 21:25.

There is in my opinion, a perfect harmony appearing to me between the teachings of the Jesus and His Apostles: they all agree upon this point: Jewish believers are not to cease to observe what Torah is possible to observe, and they are not to abandon their Jewish culture for another culture when they become believers in Jesus. The teachings are pretty clear to me.

The definition of a "Judaizer" is specifically one who says gentiles must be circumcized , that is, become jewish, to be SAVED.I do not believe that, and therefore am not part of any heresy Galatian or otherwise. If we are "free" in "Jesus"(which I am still unsure of btw, i am still figuring all of this out) do not get all upset because I freely have made a choice to obey every instruction and command He gave in the Bible? If Jesus is God, Jesus is Torah is Jesus is Torah is Jesus. Jesus is the the Living Word (john 1) Who handed down Torah, The "Law", to Moses in the first place. That Jesys died to free me from a relationship with God that you believe he instituted initially?

The Error Can Be Seen In How Galatians Is Misinterpreted as well.

The primary error I am seeing just now is the standard view of certain passages in the book of Galatians. In his Letter To The Galatians, Paul writes to address a problem: some mis-informed Jewish believers from Israel visited Galatia and told the non-Jewish Galatian believers that if they did not become Jews by circumcision and bypractice of the entire Torah, they were not truly saved (Acts 15:24).

THIS is what "Judaizing" truly is, and it is wrong and it is bondage.

However, to apply this concerning Gentiles to the Jewish people is to entirely ignore the rest Galatians, as well as the rest of the New Testament too. Galatians 3:28 is often misapplied by reciting the first part of it, and not examining its entire sense:

"There is (in the New Testament dispensation) neither Jew nor Greek ..." is chanted to say that there are now no differences between Jew and Gentile, and that all differences in religious practice and national identity should therefore be done away with. Yet, the passage does not end there.

It goes on to say " ... there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Jesus." If you apply that logic as most of the church uses in the first line to the rest of the verse, then it would naturally follow that since there is no longer any difference between slave and free, all the workers in any company can now go straight up to the executive suite and sit down in the President's chair, kick back their feet on the desk , and relax all day. also, if there is no difference between male and female, then you, if your saved, may now enter the locker-room of the opposite sex any time they wish!

Of course, the worker mentioned in the first example will be fired, and the locker-room visitor in the second example will go to jail. Why? Because Galatians is not saying that these differences no longer exist or have meaning in the real world ... Paul was writing that these things mean nothing with regard to how a person gets saved!

Jew, Greek, master, worker, male, female all get saved the same way: by repenting from sin and turning in faith to God to receive atonement through the finished work of Jesus, as the NT teaches. Galatians does not teach that Jewishness is wrong or bad. It teaches that Non-Jews are not required to adopt the mandates upon the Jewish people in order to receive salvation.

Anyways, Prejah, thanks for your patience and your kindness in dealing with me in a time where my beliefs(but not my faith) are really being testing and I feel as though I am struggling to maintain. I am sure that God is using you as an catalyst to change in my life in one fashion or another, so Praise the almighty for that, I promise you that I will.

So let me know what you all think. I really do value everyones opinion here.

Also, Martial Shadow, if you read this, tell me if these are completely foriegn concepts to judaism, or if any of this makes any sense at all to you. Its if hogwash, thats ok too..

Thanks Josh.  I am looking forward to reading this on thursday.

I guess that I don't know what you are talking about Pretjah.I thought that you were talking about being saved apart from the Law.

I don't know what all of this means and for the parts that do, I don't know where to start.

Well, the Torah inscribed on hearts/minds. There are several places where this is written (or variations thereof) in the Bible. However, most places it is written in Hebrew and taken to be a metaphor. In 4 places it is written in Aramaic and taken literally. We bind these 4 lines into our hearts and hrads 6 days a week.


Matthew 18

"And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer.

Truly I say unto you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst"

This is about going to someone in the community of faith about sin, not doctrine.

Josh, did he address that particular message to any group in particular? If so, what do you think the significance of that would be?

He was speaking to his disciples. For them, the significance is probably in "Binding and Loosing,". In the Jewish Encyclopedia, 3:215 you will find this: "BINDING AND LOOSING" ... Rabbinical term for 'forbidding and permitting.' ..

Also, I found this:

"The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra the Pharisees, says Josephus (Wars of the Jews 1:5:2),

'became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit whom they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind.' ... The various schools had the power 'to bind and to loose'; that is, to forbid and to permit (Talmud: Chagigah 3b);

and they could bind any day by declaring it a fast-day ( ... Talmud: Ta'anit 12a ... ).

This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age or in the Sanhedrin, received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, ix; Talmud: Makkot 23b).

Jesus was giving them with the same authority as the scribes and Pharisees who 'bind heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but will not move them with one of their fingers'; that is, 'loose them,' as they have the power to do (Matt 23:2-4)....

A different interpretation, comparing binding and loosing with losing and retaining sins, was used by Tertullian and all the church fathers, thus investing the head of the Christian Church with the power to forgive sins, referred to on the basis of Mt 16:18 as the "key power of the Church." TO me, I at least think this makes sense and is certainly worth consider the Jewish context of this.

ttt for rooster and Pnuema

Josh, very good stuff. I have been to a Messianic Passover and loved it! I personally belive that my church seeks to have a very Jewish understanding of God, of baptism, etc. and we rely heavily on the original intent and meaning of the OT along with the light of the NT.

It sounds like you might want to visit a messianic church. I think the NT church should do everything it can to become more and more like the original church in the book of Acts.