ttt
"Instead what I say is get in shape to play your sport, don't play your sport to get in shape."
Good point, your argument makes a lot of sense, and I tend to agree.
But isn't it called "supplemental" training for a reason? Are not some sports better suited for one approach than the other?
Also, I don't know about the other posters, but my point about doing the sport for training refered to "cardio" benefits, for the most part.
Again, taking into account the principle of "specificity", this seems to make sense.
"I do not agree that doing your sport is the best way to get in shape for your sport."
Well your occupation certainly proves your talking from an unbiased point of view.
You cant honestly sit there and say that someone who is fit by your standards but has never grappled or boxed would not gas out in wrestling practice or a boxing gym. If you want to get in shape for wrestling then you should wrestle. If you want to get in shape for boxing then you should box. S&C is not the foundation of cardio in your sport but a supplement
The main problem with using only your sport to condition yourself is that eventually you don't get more conditioned, you simply get more efficient at doing the sport.
Now, is that a prob? No, not at all, unless you encounter someone more/much more technically proficient.
C
You guys are retarded, Taku never discounted the effect on your fitness of doing a sport. If you grappled/sparred for all your fitness you would be a mess with all the incedental injuries. Training out side of class lets you focus on just fitness and vice versa going to class and not worrying about fitness lets you focus on technique.
I would rather tap you out or knock you out than worry if my fitness will let me go the distance.
"You can't honestly sit there and say that someone who is fit by your standards but has never grappled or boxed would not gas out in wrestling practice or a boxing gym"
Yes, I can.
First, we can take into account that someone who has never done these things will probably use their energy less effectively and efficiently then those who are regulars. That is still a point towards the experience model, not the fitness end of the statement I made.
I do not have a great deal of experience with boxing, BJJ etc. I have dabbled in many of these and other components of MMA training (for fun).
I have attended workshops with many MMA enthusiasts and practitioners and I can say that my fitness has allowed me to hang with them on many occasions. Often these pure MMA types gassed sooner then I did and were surprised that I was not breathing hard during all the work.
I work with MMA and BJJ athletes all the time. I can tell you that the ones who only do the sport are not in as good shape as the ones that condition themselves outside of the sport. This is consistent for my experience across the board.
TAKU
not sure of all that "attended workshops" entails; but for newbies in boxing or BJJ, fitness is usually the least of their (our) concerns.
I know from personal experience that getting completely dominated in a compbat sport tires you out pretty quickly, regardless of level of fitness.
What I mean is that I have taken BJJ classes, boxing classes, Muay Thai classes and have sparred and rolled actively.
I have also attended workshops where you are introduced to skills etc and then re-integrate them into the game as you attempt to pull them off against a resisting opponent.
I am not saying that I never feel tired...I am saying that my fitness which is not from the sport has enabled me to participate as actively as anyone else there.
I have never competed in BJJ etc. However, I have sparred and rolled all out and been tapped, rocked with punches etc. My fitness did not fail me.
TAKU
"If playing your sport was the best way to get in shape, why do any other training at all? There would by definition, be no need. If all one need do is play your sport to excel, then why do we have S&C coaches at all?"
Weights don't hit back. But that's a good thing when working on injury prevention.
Go ahead and stop training outside of your sport, you are arguing with people with years of experience and that have spent countless years studying human performance. All you have is your own personal experiences. Wait till you get the sh-t kicked out of you by someone who trains intellegently and you may be changing your mind.
TAKU there is a flaw right there:) YES it might be possible that a fit person would not gas in this specific training. He would be as well conditioned as others. BUT he would be lightyears behind in technique and sport experience wouldn't he?
I tend to be on the best conditioning for fighting is fighting side... with some minor exeptions...
Some of you need to stop this "they know better" routine of yours; it could be interpreted as "nuthugging".
As a professional, I like being questioned. It gives me the opportunity to review my beliefs and knowledge. Some questions are more challenging than others, but sometimes the less challenging questions turn out to have the most bite to them.
If we can't question the experts, then what are we? Are we sheep? I like to get to the very bottom of things, and sometimes when I probe deep enough I find new treasure. Then again, sometimes I find shit.
As a true professional, I don't think Taku minds too much if we question him.
Now back to the discussion.
No one here has said "don't do any other training besides your sport". If someone did, could you please quote it? If not, then why do you keep insisting on it?
I think the point/question being put forth is whether to concentrate MOST of your cardio training on doing YOUR ACTIVITY, and whether this is in line with the principle of "specificity of training".
From this point, we then expand on things like:
It takes longer to recover from speed work than from distance work. Thus it seems that this MAY (or may not) take away from your valuable training time.
Distance work has SOME benefits, as opposed to the "it's useless" claims. And since you can do distance work more often than speed work; do these "benefits" translate into "better"? Similar? Worse?
Bsrizpac:
"This maybe true of Short term grappling and MMA, but I dont see it applying to a 12 round boxing match."
The same goes for running 1.5 miles. The bulk of training for 1.5 mile runners is NOT distance work. They don't need to be on their feet very long and therefore it doesn't make too much sense for them to run a lot of 12-milers.
Combat athletes are on their feet a long time, but their activity is more akin to "fartlek" or intervals. So what Taku is saying DOES make sense!
However, I think the part about them being on their feet a long time is being short-changed.
"Go ahead and stop training outside of your sport, you are arguing with people with years of experience and that have spent countless years studying human performance. All you have is your own personal experiences."
Classic straw man fallacy. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are basing their argument solely on personal experience. There are experts who have different views.
Good read and good discussion.
Just my 2 cents on a couple of things:
Regarding "sport/supplemental" training:
Purely anecdotal: I've found that the worst conditioned combat athletes are the ones that come to class all the time, but do NO supplemental training outside of class. They come to EVERY class, 6 days a week, but I've found that these types lack a lot of anaerobic/aerobic conditioning. Their lack of supplemental training doesn't address their weak links.
Train your sport; but supplemental training is a must.
Regarding sprinting/LSD training:
I'm in complete agreement that circuit training for a combat athlete is perhaps the BEST way to training, because it is a mixture of anaerobic and aerobic components.
30 seconds on the bag, 10 seconds rest, 30 seconds on the treadmill.
30 seconds sprinting on the treadmill, 10 seconds rest, 30 seconds crushing the medicine ball.
Depending on how you design a circuit, you can very well address all these energy systems without excluding one or the other.
However, sometimes you DO need to spend a little more time on one type of training or another, depending on what your "weak links" are.
If I'm lacking strength, I lift. Whatever strength I gain, I incorporate into the circuit.
If I'm lacking "wind", I run LSD. Whatever "wind" I gain, I incorporate into the circuit.
But I agree, circuit/intervals are the way to go.
Here is my true stance, use as many ideas as possible and question everything. I believe that you need to do what works best for you. And lastly Taku is a good friend and I alway come to his defense.
Taku
The best way to prove your theory about S&C being the base for sport cardio is to send one of your guys who has never wrestled to a D1 school. I would bet you anything he would gas. Unfortunatly this is not possible as no coach would let someone possibly injure one of his guys so we will have to agree to disagree
Skill=Efficiency. Of course they would gas they have no clue how to conserve their energy during a match. A good example of how intellegent training effects a fight would be the TUF3 fighters on Tito's team vs. Shamrocks dudes. The only Shamrock fighter to succede was Herman (because he's a great technition) until he lost in the finals because he gased.
Wich is exactly why your sport should be the base of your cardio and S&C a supplement. Not the otherway around like Taku claims