nobones - Easy 10er. Let an ol skool guy learn you:
- Noguiera: Only person to hold Pride and UFC HW titles. May have lost his last fight but doesn't knock him out of the top ten yet and certainly not below Overeem. - Cain Velasquez: Beat Kongo, Rothwell, Noguiera, Lesnar in past year+. Also 3/4 were top ten when he beat them. Undefeated in MMA. Champion. - Shane Carwin: Beat Gonzaga when Gonzaga was still top ten. Crushed Mir who was and still is a top ten HW. Came moments away from crushing Lesnar in the first round. Except for Lesnar fight, undefeated in MMA and never gone past the first roudn in any other fight. - Frank Mir: Former UFC HW champion, and been in the top ten for over a year and in most of 2009 was ranked in the top five. First man to finish Noguiera. Defeated Kongo who was a top ten guy with ease. KOed another legend in Cro Cop. Easily ranks above Overeem. - Fedor Emelianenko: Has been a top five level HW for the past 6 years. Never lost the Pride title. Only man to beat Noguiera twice. - Fabricio Werdum: Perrenial top ten HW. However just defeated the legend Fedor. Obviously ranks above Overeem. - Junior Dos Santos: Beat Cro Cop when Cro Cop was still a top ten ranked fighter. Undefeated in the UFC. Been much more active against higher level competition in MMA than Overeem over the past two years. - Brock Lesnar: Holds the record for best win streak as HW champion in UFC history.
The real question is what has Overeem done to be ranked above any of these fighters? In three years he has had 9 wins 1 NC in MMA with all his wins being over unranked HW fighters. His one fight against Cro Cop went to NC but this was the post Gonzaga KO Cro Cop. So his one chance in 3 years to beat a legit top ten HW he blew it. The DREAM and Strikeforce HW titles don't mean shit. Like I said you are rating him on pure potential not actual accomplishments. Rankings are primarily based on actual accomplishments.
So you are right, there are only 8 solid arguments to place above Overeem but everything after that is a toss up. Many would argue Big Foot and Brendan Schaub deserve the final spots on a top ten list above Overeem and their argument would be sound. Overeem just has not been fighting enought quality competition to get ranked very highly in MMA and an argument that he shouldn't be in top ten is as sound as an argument that he should be in top ten. After the first 8 spots it is all a toss up.
You argue Dos Santos beats Crocop so he should be top ten but Reems victory isnt as impressive as it was after the gonzaga fight, Hello? JDS beat him post Gonzaga too! but Reem beat him a year earlier.
Genious - Well it all depends on how you want to rank guys.
If you go by wins, then Overeem has some work to do. His best win in MMA since moving to heavyweight full-time is Brett Rogers. He needs to beat Werdum, Barnett, or even Arlovski to really make a statement. Of course, if he can fight and beat Fedor, then that pretty much ends all debate.
If you go by potential, then the case is a lot stronger. Overeem appears to have addressed all the issues in the past that cost him a lot of fights, namely his cardio and tendency to be a bit chinny. He's fast, strong as bull, hits like a truck, and has a top notch submission game.
I'd put Overeem in the lower half of the Top 10 at this point, because you can't just crown a guy because he has put on a few good showings (read: Brock Lesnar).
But, I think he's got legit skills, and is capable of beating anyone in the division. So, hopefully we'll get to see Overeem in some big fights in 2011, and we'll be able to get an idea of what he can really do.
piratepirate - Cain = Wins over Brock, Kongo, Nog, Rothwell
Brock = Carwin, Mir, Couture
Werdum = Bigfoot, Fedor, Vera, GG
Fedor = I don't have to explain why he is ranked over reem
JDS = WErdum, Struve, GG, Big Country
Carwin = Mir and GG
Frank Mir = Kongo, Nog, Brock
Big Nog = Sylvia, Couture, HH, Barnett, Werdum
Barnett = Yvel, Rizzo, Monson, Aleks, Nog
I think you could argue all of those guys over Reem.
Now, not all those wins are over top 10 guys, but those wins are all credible solid wins.
Reem has beaten who?
Duffee coming off a KO loss,
Rogers coming off a KO loss,
Fujita coming off two fucking losses,
James Thompson coming off 4 fucking losses in a row!,
Tony Sylvester (actually coming off a fucking win)
Gary Goodridge coming off 3 losses in a row,
CC No Contest for insane nut shots,
Hunt coming off 2 losses in a row,
Lee ( who was 1 - 1 and his 3rd fucking fight),
You see where this is going.
How is ANY of that argueable for a top 10 slot?
Let alone a top 5 spot.
In his last 9 fucking fights he fought 2 people coming off wins,
and one it was the guys 3rd pro fight. Jesus.
Now throw a K-1 world grand prix title in there against THE BEST kick boxers in the world. Throw in how hes finished 9/10 last fights, throw in how bad he was tooling cro cop before the nut shot. It's the skills he has that put him in the top 10. He's not only beating his opponents, hes wrecking them in 2 different sports. He finished Todd Duffee in 19 seconds..the man who holds the fasted knockout in UFC history. Using old wins to throw people in the top 10 is useless. Its right now that matters and if you can't see that Overeem would tool Barnett, Nog, Mir, Brock and have damn good fights against Fedor, Werdum, Cain and JDS then you are blind. He hasn't lost in 10 fights...Nog just got knocked out, Brock got exposed badly, Fedor lost to a guy way faster than Overeem did to the same guy years ago, Carwin lost to the joke that is Lesnar. Barnett has been caught roiding who knows how many times and hasn't fought a relevant fight in years. It goes both ways man. Overeem definitely deserves his top 10 spot.
What you do in OTHER sports has nothing to do with your MMA ranking.
Chris723 - People ranking Overeem in mma based on his K-1 achievment is like ranking Toney in mma based on his boxing achievments.
Except, Reem has been doing MMA for best part of 13-14 years, and at a lower weight was fighting all the top Pride guys and has a solid ground game. So, no, its not 'like ranking Toney in mma based on his boxing achievments'
Chris723 - 5.Carwin (I rank him ahead of Lesnar bcuz his fight with Lesnar shoulda been stopped, he landed 50 unanswered shots while Brock was curled up in a ball for 3 minutes)
carwin nut huggers still can't get over the fact he lost. in 5 years, when you look back at shane's record....he'll still have a loss to lesnar.
nobones - Easy 10er. Let an ol skool guy learn you:
- Noguiera: Only person to hold Pride and UFC HW titles...
This is where I stopped reading...
So, I assume you are NOT basing your list on who you think would (hypothetically) beat who, if they fought.
Ok.
Its statements like this that have fed the criticism about 10ers. RANKINGS ARE NOT BASED ON HYPOTHETICALS, THEY ARE BASED OFF OF ACTUAL ACCOMLISHMENTS. IREPEAT ACTUAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS.
piratepirate - Cain = Wins over Brock, Kongo, Nog, Rothwell Brock = Carwin, Mir, Couture Werdum = Bigfoot, Fedor, Vera, GG Fedor = I don't have to explain why he is ranked over reem JDS = WErdum, Struve, GG, Big Country Carwin = Mir and GG Frank Mir = Kongo, Nog, Brock Big Nog = Sylvia, Couture, HH, Barnett, Werdum Barnett = Yvel, Rizzo, Monson, Aleks, Nog
I think you could argue all of those guys over Reem. Now, not all those wins are over top 10 guys, but those wins are all credible solid wins.
Reem has beaten who? Duffee coming off a KO loss, Rogers coming off a KO loss, Fujita coming off two fucking losses, James Thompson coming off 4 fucking losses in a row!, Tony Sylvester (actually coming off a fucking win) Gary Goodridge coming off 3 losses in a row, CC No Contest for insane nut shots, Hunt coming off 2 losses in a row, Lee ( who was 1 - 1 and his 3rd fucking fight),
You see where this is going. How is ANY of that argueable for a top 10 slot? Let alone a top 5 spot. In his last 9 fucking fights he fought 2 people coming off wins, and one it was the guys 3rd pro fight. Jesus.
Now throw a K-1 world grand prix title in there against THE BEST kick boxers in the world. Throw in how hes finished 9/10 last fights, throw in how bad he was tooling cro cop before the nut shot. It's the skills he has that put him in the top 10. He's not only beating his opponents, hes wrecking them in 2 different sports. He finished Todd Duffee in 19 seconds..the man who holds the fasted knockout in UFC history. Using old wins to throw people in the top 10 is useless. Its right now that matters and if you can't see that Overeem would tool Barnett, Nog, Mir, Brock and have damn good fights against Fedor, Werdum, Cain and JDS then you are blind. He hasn't lost in 10 fights...Nog just got knocked out, Brock got exposed badly, Fedor lost to a guy way faster than Overeem did to the same guy years ago, Carwin lost to the joke that is Lesnar. Barnett has been caught roiding who knows how many times and hasn't fought a relevant fight in years. It goes both ways man. Overeem definitely deserves his top 10 spot.
What you do in OTHER sports has nothing to do with your MMA ranking. Thats fucking idiotic. Kickboxing is a different sport.
OVereem isn't even fighting guys coming off wins.
For fun lets compare Overeem to JDS and Carwin. We'll go from when Overeem made his permanent Heavyweight switch. JDS is primarily stand up(boxing) Carwin pretty much only uses his stand up(Sloppy power punching) Overeem has achieved greater things than both of them in striking and is the best striker of the 3. Overeem is also good on the ground and has a great guillotine which is trouble for any wrestler shooting in for the take down. He hasn't been submitted by anyone but Werdum and that was a much smaller less skilled Overeem, he also took Werdum down multiple times and sat in Werdum's guard while Fedor got submitted in a minute or how ever long it was. Shane Carwin in the meantime is out getting subbed by Brock fucking Lesnar, and JDS got subbed by a complete no name only 3 years ago, around the same time Overeem made his permanent heavyweight move. To not rank Overeem in the top 10 is stupid.
HOw can you rank him in the top 10? He just won the Dream hw "title" over Duffee on a weeks notice who was coming off a KO loss.
Are you reem nut huggers fucking kidding? until Reem PROVES it, you're just speculating.
Which top 10 has Jon Jones beat? People are putting him in the top 10. What about JDS? who has he beat to be in the top 10? Cain has only beaten Lesnar(who is a complete joke of a fighter once he gets hit) and a shell of Nog. Overeem is a beast and definitely deserves to be top 10. His striking is unmatched at heavyweight and he has good ground game as well.
JDS beat Werdum, since you aparently dont follow MMA, who is the guy who just beat some guy named Fedor E...something or another. Overeems striking has been unmatched in HW by the likes of James Thompson,The viscious Fujita, or the venerable Tony "the tiger" Sylvester, and more... a true murderers row of top level K-1 strikers.
HOw can you rank him in the top 10? He just won the Dream hw "title" over Duffee on a weeks notice who was coming off a KO loss.
Are you reem nut huggers fucking kidding? until Reem PROVES it, you're just speculating.
Which top 10 has Jon Jones beat? People are putting him in the top 10. What about JDS? who has he beat to be in the top 10? Cain has only beaten Lesnar(who is a complete joke of a fighter once he gets hit) and a shell of Nog. Overeem is a beast and definitely deserves to be top 10. His striking is unmatched at heavyweight and he has good ground game as well.
Overeems striking has been unmatched in HW by the likes of James Thompson,The viscious Fujita, or the venerable Tony "the tiger" Sylvester, and more... a true murderers row of top level K-1 strikers.
So are you trying to say MMA fighters have better stand up than K-1 fighters? Who the fuck is going to test his stand up in MMA if the best K-1 guys have already tested it been beat by it? JDS? The guy who couldn't put away CheeseBurger even after a whole fight of dominating him, and was still eating punches from him? If either of those 2 were taking the punishment from that fight from Reem they'd both be KTFO.
HOw can you rank him in the top 10? He just won the Dream hw "title" over Duffee on a weeks notice who was coming off a KO loss.
Are you reem nut huggers fucking kidding? until Reem PROVES it, you're just speculating.
Which top 10 has Jon Jones beat? People are putting him in the top 10. What about JDS? who has he beat to be in the top 10? Cain has only beaten Lesnar(who is a complete joke of a fighter once he gets hit) and a shell of Nog. Overeem is a beast and definitely deserves to be top 10. His striking is unmatched at heavyweight and he has good ground game as well.
Overeems striking has been unmatched in HW by the likes of James Thompson,The viscious Fujita, or the venerable Tony "the tiger" Sylvester, and more... a true murderers row of top level K-1 strikers.
So are you trying to say MMA fighters have better stand up than K-1 fighters? Who the fuck is going to test his stand up in MMA if the best K-1 guys have already tested it been beat by it? JDS? The guy who couldn't put away CheeseBurger even after a whole fight of dominating him, and was still eating punches from him? If either of those 2 were taking the punishment from that fight from Reem they'd both be KTFO.
Again, sir, Hypotheticals. would you quit your job based on the fact that there are jobs out there that pay 1,000,000 a year and you applied for one, or would you wait till you got a hire date to quit your current job? same situation. The facts show... 1) that Overeem has fought top fighters in the past 2)he lost every time 3)there is top competition in the org where he is the HW champ, but he comtinues to fight cans 4)JDS makes the effort to fight good fighters while Overeem chases a payday.
I challenge you to review Overeem's record before you post any further about his ability to this point, and discontinue posting about his potential till he exhibits it on top talent. if he wins against a top fighter I will shower him with deserved praise, but right now none is deserved. Based off your logic I am in contention for #1, since I am undefeated, have limitless potential, so I want my shot at Fedor, I earned it.
HOw can you rank him in the top 10? He just won the Dream hw "title" over Duffee on a weeks notice who was coming off a KO loss.
Are you reem nut huggers fucking kidding? until Reem PROVES it, you're just speculating.
Which top 10 has Jon Jones beat? People are putting him in the top 10. What about JDS? who has he beat to be in the top 10? Cain has only beaten Lesnar(who is a complete joke of a fighter once he gets hit) and a shell of Nog. Overeem is a beast and definitely deserves to be top 10. His striking is unmatched at heavyweight and he has good ground game as well.
Overeems striking has been unmatched in HW by the likes of James Thompson,The viscious Fujita, or the venerable Tony "the tiger" Sylvester, and more... a true murderers row of top level K-1 strikers.
So are you trying to say MMA fighters have better stand up than K-1 fighters? Who the fuck is going to test his stand up in MMA if the best K-1 guys have already tested it been beat by it? JDS? The guy who couldn't put away CheeseBurger even after a whole fight of dominating him, and was still eating punches from him? If either of those 2 were taking the punishment from that fight from Reem they'd both be KTFO.
To point out one more irony, you ask "So you say MMA fighters have better striking than K-1 fighters", but Overeem is a MMA fighter..right. Aren't we arguing his place in MMA rankings?
AbsW - Except, Reem has been doing MMA for best part of 13-14 years, and at a lower weight was fighting all the top Pride guys and has a solid ground game.
If we consider his Pride fights against highly ranked guys at a lower weight, that doesn't exactly help the argument that he should be ranked highly: - Liddell L (TKO) - Lil Nog L - Shogun L (TKO) - Werdum L (sub) - Lil Nog L (TKO) - Arona (sub punches) - Shogun L (KO)