I'm pretty sure that Neil Melanson is blind in one eye, so I imagine that would limit his ability to compete at a high level. A friend of mine trains and fights out of Xtreme Couture and has told me that Neil's instruction is top notch. Personally, I don't care much for the technique in that video. Like Marcelo Garcia says, closed guard stuff only works reliably when you are much bigger or much more skilled than your opponent.
andre -
I really cant think of an American who teaches as well as some of the top Brazilian instructors, although there are some who come close.
Shawn Williams is an amazingly detailed instructor. Sean Patrick Flannery is, as well. :)
Way too many tangents - there's always going to be maybes and they might do this but that should be addressed separately, imho. Drilling/teaching a technique is based on one reaction. If you showed most multiple reactions to every move you taught your students would learn nothing.
Gene Lebell trained Catch Wrestling under Ed "strangler" Lewis. His Catch lineage is as storied and prestigious as it gets. Ed Lewis was considered a monster for his day and Lebell has always spoke highly of Lewis. So if Melanson legitmiately comes through Lebell, thats as legit a Catch Wrestling lineage as you can find.
El_Gato - I'm pretty sure that Neil Melanson is blind in one eye, so I imagine that would limit his ability to compete at a high level. A friend of mine trains and fights out of Xtreme Couture and has told me that Neil's instruction is top notch. Personally, I don't care much for the technique in that video. Like Marcelo Garcia says, closed guard stuff only works reliably when you are much bigger or much more skilled than your opponent.
Marcelo really said that? Not questioning, I'm just curious. Claudio Calasans pretty much wrecked Braulio with the closed guard, and gave marcelo hell from there too. Also, closed guard advocates like Roger, Henry Akins and Rickson are all ardent supporters of it. Henry even refers to it as the second most dominant position behind the mount.
That being said, the technique in the video is alright. But, it seems like an over complicating of a punch through triangle.
ElPulpo -There are of course exceptions to every rule.El_Gato - I'm pretty sure that Neil Melanson is blind in one eye, so I imagine that would limit his ability to compete at a high level. A friend of mine trains and fights out of Xtreme Couture and has told me that Neil's instruction is top notch. Personally, I don't care much for the technique in that video. Like Marcelo Garcia says, closed guard stuff only works reliably when you are much bigger or much more skilled than your opponent.
Marcelo really said that? Not questioning, I'm just curious. Claudio Calasans pretty much wrecked Braulio with the closed guard, and gave marcelo hell from there too. Also, closed guard advocates like Roger, Henry Akins and Rickson are all ardent supporters of it. Henry even refers to it as the second most dominant position behind the mount.
That being said, the technique in the video is alright. But, it seems like an over complicating of a punch through triangle.
Yeah, Marcelo does not advocate the closed guard. He's said this several times during instruction on mginaction.com He doesn't say it never works, just that it's not high percentage and can only be counted on when one's opponent is much smaller or less experienced. He also says the same thing, for the most part, about attacking from any bottom position. His goal is to use the guard to get on top, then work for the sub once he's there. Of course, he has submissions from the bottom, but he only uses them when his opponent makes a mistake during a transition; while they're trying to pass or defend the sweep. I think his attitude of only practicing techniques that he can count on to work reliably against bigger, world class opponents is the key to his success. This is why he doesn't use head and arm chokes, kimuras, triangles from guard etc.
All I know is, if your looking for a DVD on triangles go by Ryan Hall's. I wouldn't give this guy any of my money. I think Neil melancon is another one of these guys who wanted to be "the man" so bad that they couldn't be humble and work there way up through the ranks like everyone else but instead claim that they are NoGi blackbelts. 
El_Gato - Yeah, Marcelo does not advocate the closed guard. He's said this several times during instruction on mginaction.com He doesn't say it never works, just that it's not high percentage and can only be counted on when one's opponent is much smaller or less experienced. He also says the same thing, for the most part, about attacking from any bottom position. His goal is to use the guard to get on top, then work for the sub once he's there. Of course, he has submissions from the bottom, but he only uses them when his opponent makes a mistake during a transition; while they're trying to pass or defend the sweep. I think his attitude of only practicing techniques that he can count on to work reliably against bigger, world class opponents is the key to his success. This is why he doesn't use head and arm chokes, kimuras, triangles from guard etc.
Thanks for the info. I have a world of respect for Marcelo, and my guard game revolves around the closed guard. I agree with the get on top every time you can philosophy as well. I am curious as to how much Marcelo's physique influences his opinion. He does have short, thick legs. In any case, great info.
El_Gato - Yeah, Marcelo does not advocate the closed guard. He's said this several times during instruction on mginaction.com He doesn't say it never works, just that it's not high percentage and can only be counted on when one's opponent is much smaller or less experienced. He also says the same thing, for the most part, about attacking from any bottom position. His goal is to use the guard to get on top, then work for the sub once he's there. Of course, he has submissions from the bottom, but he only uses them when his opponent makes a mistake during a transition; while they're trying to pass or defend the sweep. I think his attitude of only practicing techniques that he can count on to work reliably against bigger, world class opponents is the key to his success. This is why he doesn't use head and arm chokes, kimuras, triangles from guard etc.
Why don't triangles work? From guard when the smaller guy is on the bottom and the larger guy is being triangled. I can see why in MMA where you can get slammed but in BJJ that's not the case. What am I missing?
Triangles do work, but when size and skill is a factor I can see why Marcelo doesn't use them much. Size and body type do make a big difference in triangles.
El_Gato - Yeah, Marcelo does not advocate the closed guard. He's said this several times during instruction on mginaction.com He doesn't say it never works, just that it's not high percentage and can only be counted on when one's opponent is much smaller or less experienced. He also says the same thing, for the most part, about attacking from any bottom position. His goal is to use the guard to get on top, then work for the sub once he's there. Of course, he has submissions from the bottom, but he only uses them when his opponent makes a mistake during a transition; while they're trying to pass or defend the sweep. I think his attitude of only practicing techniques that he can count on to work reliably against bigger, world class opponents is the key to his success. This is why he doesn't use head and arm chokes, kimuras, triangles from guard etc.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et6HRk72Fqc
cause i like to stir shit
Great stuff. I worked it tonight!
"Jacare used a strength advantage to win that because he forced the arm out in to a kimura when marcelo had? his arm in a safe position next to his body. Yes in bjj technique prevails over strength but not when the strong guy is also good at bjj."
from comment section
1armedScissor -El_Gato - Yeah, Marcelo does not advocate the closed guard. He's said this several times during instruction on mginaction.com He doesn't say it never works, just that it's not high percentage and can only be counted on when one's opponent is much smaller or less experienced. He also says the same thing, for the most part, about attacking from any bottom position. His goal is to use the guard to get on top, then work for the sub once he's there. Of course, he has submissions from the bottom, but he only uses them when his opponent makes a mistake during a transition; while they're trying to pass or defend the sweep. I think his attitude of only practicing techniques that he can count on to work reliably against bigger, world class opponents is the key to his success. This is why he doesn't use head and arm chokes, kimuras, triangles from guard etc.
Why don't triangles work? From guard when the smaller guy is on the bottom and the larger guy is being triangled. I can see why in MMA where you can get slammed but in BJJ that's not the case. What am I missing?
what you are missing is that Marcelo is talking about strategy for going up against guys in the absolute divisions. Why would he, say, try to triangle a Roger Gracie vs work like hell to get his back and go for the safer RNC alternative? Many people fall in love w techniques but fail to realize that techniques work best in a situational context when skill is equal but size/athleticism is not. How you play vs someone who is say 300lbs is alot different then how you play against say someone who is 150lbs. So its not like he never teaches good closed guard work off his back, but if you watch him he may work that on guys his own size but almost NEVER works that against guys bigger then him. So he switches his game up based on his opponents.
^Which is why incomplete/one-dimensional games are such a travesty. It's stating the obvious, no doubt, but people need to realize that _____technique/position/strategy isn't going to work for every person against every opponent in every situation. In Garcia's case he's competing against bigger opponents who're equally skilled/conditioned so he's got to overcome that disadvantage in the alotted time by having an aggressive, sweep heavy, transition-based game that minimizes an opponent's ability to shut his game down with size. That's a good game for him and people with similar attributes. Doesn't mean jack in terms of the value the techniques/strategie he dismisses have for others. If I triangle a highly skilled but smaller opponent with the material in the OP's clip is the win cheaper because I'm bigger? Absolutely not. It just means I use the game that's best for my body and too-bad-so-sad for the child-sized men out there and/or anyone who gets caught sleeping, thinking _technique/guard doesn't work anymore because _______ person/group don't use it anymore.
^
Actually if you are always going to just go against people your size or smaller, then a closed guard game is just fine- I'm sure Marcelo would say the same.
He has a killer triangle, and was killing people with it, winning blue and purple world championships with it.
If you are going against someone significantly bigger than you, whether you are Marcelo's size or 6 feet tall, then the closed guard is not the optimal guard to use.
It really has nothing to do with Marcelo's small stature or not, he trying to espouse the most efficient type of bjj, and closed guard (whether you are amazing at it or not), is simply not the most efficient or effective for ALL body shapes.
Getting back to the point, I dont know much about Gene Lebell, but from all accounts, he is legit - even as a catch wrestler (I presume).
However, Neil didn't get his black belt from Gene. He got it from Karo.
My question is has Karo given out other black belts before? Seems odd if Neil is his only one?
That's like me training at Rickson Gracie's academy for a few years, and then getting promoted by one of his black belts (who hasn't promoted anyone else before)....doe that make me a legit bjj blackbelt? or a legit Rickson blackbelt?
kying418 - ^
Actually if you are always going to just go against people your size or smaller, then a closed guard game is just fine- I'm sure Marcelo would say the same.
He has a killer triangle, and was killing people with it, winning blue and purple world championships with it.
If you are going against someone significantly bigger than you, whether you are Marcelo's size or 6 feet tall, then the closed guard is not the optimal guard to use.
It really has nothing to do with Marcelo's small stature or not, he trying to espouse the most efficient type of bjj, and closed guard (whether you are amazing at it or not), is simply not the most efficient or effective for ALL body shapes.
I don't think he would for two reasons. First, it's not only size that makes the closed guard ineffective, it's experience. If two people of equal size and SKILL are in closed guard, the guy on bottom is going to have a very hard time. According to MG, the best thing to do is establish some type of hand/arm control, 2 on 1 for example, and transition to butterfly. Second, Marcelo has said that he stays true to the principle idea of jiu jitsu - that smaller opponents can defeat larger ones using the right techniques.
If you search the "in action" videos on mginaction.com, you will find ONE example of Marcelo using the closed guard to set up a triangle, ONE example of him doing an armbar from closed guard, ZERO examples of kimura from closed guard, ZERO examples of collar choke from closed guard,and ONE example of omoplata from closed guard (out of 2,407 "in action" videos). There are several (about 20) examples of him finishing the triangle from the bottom, but even when he catches the triangle his prefered finish is the armbar variation.
Hunter V -1armedScissor -El_Gato - Yeah, Marcelo does not advocate the closed guard. He's said this several times during instruction on mginaction.com He doesn't say it never works, just that it's not high percentage and can only be counted on when one's opponent is much smaller or less experienced. He also says the same thing, for the most part, about attacking from any bottom position. His goal is to use the guard to get on top, then work for the sub once he's there. Of course, he has submissions from the bottom, but he only uses them when his opponent makes a mistake during a transition; while they're trying to pass or defend the sweep. I think his attitude of only practicing techniques that he can count on to work reliably against bigger, world class opponents is the key to his success. This is why he doesn't use head and arm chokes, kimuras, triangles from guard etc.
Why don't triangles work? From guard when the smaller guy is on the bottom and the larger guy is being triangled. I can see why in MMA where you can get slammed but in BJJ that's not the case. What am I missing?<br type="_moz" />
what you are missing is that Marcelo is talking about strategy for going up against guys in the absolute divisions. Why would he, say, try to triangle a Roger Gracie vs work like hell to get his back and go for the safer RNC alternative? Many people fall in love w techniques but fail to realize that techniques work best in a situational context when skill is equal but size/athleticism is not. How you play vs someone who is say 300lbs is alot different then how you play against say someone who is 150lbs. So its not like he never teaches good closed guard work off his back, but if you watch him he may work that on guys his own size but almost NEVER works that against guys bigger then him. So he switches his game up based on his opponents.
Good posts! Thanks
Hunter V -1armedScissor -El_Gato - Yeah, Marcelo does not advocate the closed guard. He's said this several times during instruction on mginaction.com He doesn't say it never works, just that it's not high percentage and can only be counted on when one's opponent is much smaller or less experienced. He also says the same thing, for the most part, about attacking from any bottom position. His goal is to use the guard to get on top, then work for the sub once he's there. Of course, he has submissions from the bottom, but he only uses them when his opponent makes a mistake during a transition; while they're trying to pass or defend the sweep. I think his attitude of only practicing techniques that he can count on to work reliably against bigger, world class opponents is the key to his success. This is why he doesn't use head and arm chokes, kimuras, triangles from guard etc.
Why don't triangles work? From guard when the smaller guy is on the bottom and the larger guy is being triangled. I can see why in MMA where you can get slammed but in BJJ that's not the case. What am I missing?<br type="_moz" />
what you are missing is that Marcelo is talking about strategy for going up against guys in the absolute divisions. Why would he, say, try to triangle a Roger Gracie vs work like hell to get his back and go for the safer RNC alternative? Many people fall in love w techniques but fail to realize that techniques work best in a situational context when skill is equal but size/athleticism is not. How you play vs someone who is say 300lbs is alot different then how you play against say someone who is 150lbs. So its not like he never teaches good closed guard work off his back, but if you watch him he may work that on guys his own size but almost NEVER works that against guys bigger then him. So he switches his game up based on his opponents.
No, Marcelo is not talking about strategy. If he can't count on it working against big, world class guys he doesn't even bother with it; not even against smaller guys in practice. What good is it for him to spend his limited training time perfecting techniqes that aren't going to work against everyone? And this principle shouldn't just apply to Marcelo just because he competes at a world class level. I may only be a blue belt, but my goal is to one day be a world class black belt. Even though It might work for me now, it doesn't make sense to spend so much time on techniques that aren't going to work as I progress through the ranks.