New- Evolution Ground

bludhall: because for some reason the omnipotent creator of the universe has only one plan with all this and its to get us to worship him, exclusivley of course.

I guess he is a bit of an underacheiver

me: nope, His plan is unfolding marvelously...but apparently you are.

chance: It works sometimes and for some people. However the atheist/agnostic gets painted as some kind of crazed murdering rapist because he doesn't have an opinion on possibly imaginary Gods, even though he may be living his life in a loving, good and purposeful way. Strange..

me: I would submit that most atheist and agnostic are restrained by the influence pre modern Christianity made on the west. This influence, though under attack, is still the basis for much of our traditional values, laws, norms etc.

Most have a dear old mom, aunt, nun, someone who was tender and who gave them a sense of the goodness of religion and there is a certain threshold that moral atheist will not go. Others (especially younger people nowadays, in gangs, in hip hop, in nihilist groups, etc.) they are acting out the fantasies of the post christian world.

you: How do you explain that a country like Japan which has no connection to the Christian-Judean-Islamic God has such a low crime rate, yet America - a Christian country - has a far higher crime rate? Your statements are not supported by evidence.

me: can you validate the lack of connection to Christian/Judean/Islamic God in Japan? Can you give me the verifiable stats on missionaries, mosques, synogogues, etc historically for the last oh...500 years.

Can you also quantify there crime rate vs. America's for the last 200 years? Japan was soundly defeated in WWII after waging an offensive war with and being complicit in the deaths of millions of Jews. I would suspect you might be implying after the allies totally disarmed them, after they had two cities wiped out, after they wrote in their constitution that they could not have an army etc.

There defeat in WWII changed their psyche considerably but you have a bit of work to do before trotting out such a general and lazy stmt.

Also, I'd like you to quantify how this is a Christian nation. Our country by way of voting is about 50/50 republicans vs. democrats. Most traditionalist tend to vote republicans but we have a large group of people in our upper levels of govt, press, educational institutions, cultural influencers (music, art, novels, t.v., etc) businesses, that are far from Christian.

Rooster,

Saying I'm making general and lazy statements? Pot, kettle, black.

You need to do your research in regards to Jews and Japan. I suggest you research "The Fugu Plan".

Regarding crime rates, Check this link: answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=3231

An excerpt for statistics in 1998:

Murders per 100,000.
1. Russia Federation 18.07
2. United States 6.32
3. Malaysia 2.73
Japan 0.58

Rape per 100,000.
1. United States 34.20
2. England and Wales 14.69
3. France 13.38
Japan 1.48

I'm not going to bother researching crime statistics for the past 200 years. You're the one making the crazy assumptions that without a belief in God people will become animals and go on a murderous raping spree. How about you back up your claims with some evidence?

you: I'm not going to bother researching crime statistics for the past 200 years.

me: well then, how good is your stat or your assertion. Are you claiming that the U.S. was a Christian nation in '98 which is the statistic you did copy. Of those who committed murder (or rape or whatever) can you quantify how many were identified as Christians and how many were not? If not, I'd say your stats are pretty useless.

I also think that not including stats from pre WwII is a bit disengenuous.

you: You're the one making the crazy assumptions that without a belief in God people will become animals and go on a murderous raping spree. How about you back up your claims with some evidence?

me: ok, Unibomber. Manson. Stalin. Here are 3 individuals who were hostile to Christianity, had an anti Christian world view and who as far as I can tell, had no traditional belief in the Judeo Christian God.

I should add that you misrepresented what I said. I clearly said that there are many "good" atheist still restrained by the semblence of traditionalism around them that was once a natural part of the culture.

Are you an atheist?

Rooster,
You're the one making crazy assertions. I'm not going to get into an argument with you over statistics because I find you dishonest and believe you will squirm every which way to avoid being wrong about your beliefs - no matter what the evidence.

LOL...1998...one year?

Quantifying "christian U.S"?

No validation for the Japanese exposure to Judaism or Christianity?

...and finally having to resort to personal inuendos ('crazy assertions, dishonest, etc')

Have you enrolled in college yet and if so, have you had to write a paper with an annotated bibliography yet?

Don't think you can come on here, make lazy assertions and then squirm your way out with personal attacks.

Be a little more sober about the way your present facts and don't rely on personal attacks or you'll merit an F or D when you finally have to write a paper.

weak stuff dude. weak.

Once again, Pot - kettle - black.

How about you back up your claims that people who don't believe in God are without a moral compass and act like animals?

Regarding Christianity in Japan, the current statistics as of 2003 are:

Shinto - 107,559,000
Buddhism - 93,986,000
Christianity -2,157,000
Other - 10,124,000

As I said, I'm not going to go into "influence" because you are a dishonest person who will disregard evidence if it does not fit into your world view.

So, let's see you back up your claims with statistics.

you: How about you back up your claims that people who don't believe in God are without a moral compass and act like animals?

me: well, first of all you didn't accurtely quote me. I have said 2 other times that there were "good" atheist that were restrained by what remnants of Christianity were still civilizing our culture. ARE YOU READING WHAT I'M WRITING? that's another big fat F. Don't misquote people. Be honest about what they are saying.

Now, how about an example that atheism, or agnosticism for that matter, or just wrong beliefs in God are impactful (for the negative).

Ok, me. i vacillated from a culture catholic, to an agnostic (never made it over to atheist) and that alone was enough for me to justify the typical immoral college lifestyle (drinking, fighting, sex, cheating, etc...all that stuff that is now 'normal').

My personal disciplines (in terms of general morality) are so much stronger once I committed myself to the knowledge that Jesus is real, He died for my stupid sins, and He loves me.

Are you an atheist?

you: Regarding Christianity in Japan, the current statistics as of 2003 are: Shinto - 107,559,000 Buddhism - 93,986,000 Christianity -2,157,000 Other - 10,124,000

me: You should go into politics or marketing. Surely you are not this shallow.

You claimed that "...How do you explain that a country like Japan which has no connection to the Christian-Judean-Islamic God has such a low crime rate, yet America - a Christian country - has a far higher crime rate?"

Well, your own stats show that you are either lying or don't read your own posts, or are a schizo...

You state on one hand that Japan has "no connection to Christian...God..." and then you post a stat that is 4 years old that shows over 2.1 million Christians.

I think I'll stand aside and let your own words speak for themselves.

However, we both know who was dishonest here and who doesn't even know what "evidence" apparently is because you cite conclusions that are REFUTED by your 'evidence'.

Incredible.

*stands out of the way, so lovetochoke can argue both for and against his position with limited stats...

"are you telling me that Cho was a moralist? That Cho was a man of God, a man of the bible, a man concerned with faith? Or do you think that hostility he had towards people, religion, capitalism etc. more closely align themselves with the amoral culture now permeating our society."

I said nothing about Cho. Nice subject switch but sadly not relevant to my post.

"maybe so, but I sure knew a lot of people and still do that were like me."

These are people who have not thought things through and who are drifting. It is possible to be a moral person and also an atheist or agnostic. Or do you disagree? FYI I don't base my moral decisions on a remnant of Christianity passed to me by my dear old grandmother. I'm not a child rooster and I can think for myself. I'm self aware.

"what is good with out an ultimate benchmark for good? You have no standard for good w/out God. Doing something that "feels nice" or makes people happy may be the right thing, or maybe it's not."

I do have a standard without God, and so do many other people. It is the human standard. Unlike you in your pre-god days, I have no desire to go around being an asshole. I'm beginning to see where your motivation for this straightjacket morality comes from.

chance: I said nothing about Cho. Nice subject switch but sadly not relevant to my post.

me: sorry, he was brought up on another post...but i think he serves as a good example that wrong thinking impacts behavior don't you? In fact unless it's a Christian (so called) like McVeight(who wasn't) or some radical pro lifer, there are never inferences made to these other peoples world views and how they impact their actions.

you: These are people who have not thought things through and who are drifting.

me: true, I would concede that.

you: It is possible to be a moral person and also an atheist or agnostic.

me: well certainly in their own eyes, or certainly to have a set of standards or ethics, or to be legal and humanistic/philanthrophic in a way that society recognizes as moral...again, I would concede that.

you: Or do you disagree? FYI I don't base my moral decisions on a remnant of Christianity passed to me by my dear old grandmother. I'm not a child rooster and I can think for myself. I'm self aware.

me: certainly chance, but you have been exposed to the framework of christianity in ways you probably don't recognize.

The bible also indicates that it is the Church and His Spirit in the church, that acts as a restraint on an unregenerate society. I do believe that is true as well. But yhou made some good points.

Rooster, you argued that people who believe in and are taught evolution were committing evil deeds "because they have no moral compass. They do not believe in God and they are pleasure seekers...they act like what they are told they are ANIMALS"

Can you please provide evidence to back up your claims?

Rooster,
Is it also your contention that the 1% of people who are Christian in Japan somehow restrain the other 99% from being animals?

Yet in the U.S. which is 80% Christian, the crime rates are higher because?

love to choke: Rooster, you argued that people who believe in and are taught evolution were committing evil deeds "because they have no moral compass. They do not believe in God and they are pleasure seekers...they act like what they are told they are ANIMALS"

Can you please provide evidence to back up your claims?

me: sure, I offered myself as one example.

you:
Rooster, Is it also your contention that the 1% of people who are Christian in Japan somehow restrain the other 99% from being animals?

me: no, it's my contention that your stats didn't affirm what you stated...that Japan had no connection to Christian or Jewish God.

you: Yet in the U.S. which is 80% Christian, the crime rates are higher because?

me: your stats are weak dude. We are clearly in a post Christian U.S. track crime from 1806 to 2006 and tell me what crime has done in the U.S. In the 50's the biggest problem was kids chewing gum in class...now it's drugs, sex and killing people...

As Christianity has declined as the moral framework and been replaced with atheism and evolution, crime has spiked.

I dont think its necessarily christianity declining. You see a huge growth of church membership and there is more christian media and options for being involved than ever.

I think in this aspect, its the type of christianity that is the problem. Weak, full service, mega churches putting on high tech shows and then giving blow jobs to homosexual prostitutes. Hypocrisy.

self gratifying instant service reality tv rich and famous for nothing that is contributing to the decline in society. I also think that PC talk has unraveled the fabric of society. Egalitarianism and compassion are not at the heart of PC talk. The ME of our society is the reason. No call to duty to God Country and family.

We dont live in an honor and shame society, we live in the lets figure out what your innterchild wounds have done to you to become a victim.

The only thing that holds a society together is putting the collective good over the individual self.

WW 2 , the greatest generation of men rebuilding this society and the baby boom only to give way to well fed, rarely called upon for sacrifice is an incredible blunder.

Places like japan and crime are based upon honor and shame. respect for authority, family and honor make for a safe society.

so in some sense, Any religion advocating morals and collective good will be beneficial over a secular/individualistic system.

Yeah, I made a thread on it awhile back. 'were you satisfied with ?'.