Stop all the excuses about Rich "looking way off" or "Rich overtraining" he simply did not know how to deal with the very basic plum (thai boxing clinch for the newbies) and made no intelligent attempt to get out of it. If you do thai boxing, Rich's efforts to get out resembled the attempts of people trying to get out of Royce's mount in the early Gracie challenge matches without ever having done Gracie Jiu-jitsu. This is just another symptom of lets become a fighter without being a martial artist first paradigm that is resulting in gigantic holes in people's game that are exposed by true martial artists.
everyone has holes. name one fighter who doesnt. silva just found something that worked in his favor. have you looked up the martial arts backgrounds of anyone else that rich has beaten? let me know when you find someone with a "martial arts first paradigm" that is undefeated in UFC or Pride.
Steve I disagree,
He knows Plum as well as anyone that has not spent considerable time in THailand. COnsider it a lack of finding a training partner that had a TOP LEVEL Plum. If you have a bunch of training partners that have blue/purple level cross sides and all of a sudden you are under the cross side of BB all your stuff goes out the window. he said it nimself. Consider Florian, you would not say he has no guard but he could not get up off the bottom or stop the pass (and mount) from a sub BB level guy. Why, because he probobly had NO ONE in his camp that was anything like Sherk.
Adam
From the UG:
From: japetto
Date: 10/16/06 02:45 PM
Member Since: 08/10/2005
5307 Total Posts Ignore User
Peach, IMO.
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From: BigFarmer
Date: 10/16/06 02:45 PM
Member Since: 12/16/2005
2533 Total Posts Ignore User
Who uses a thai clinch like that in the UFC? Rich didn't know how to deal with it and that was his undoing. Silva is a monster!
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From: WesSimmsOnlyFan
Date: 10/16/06 02:45 PM
Member Since: 07/21/2006
324 Total Posts Ignore User
You're right. And every black belt BJJ'er that gets mounted and armbarred has no idea about the basic escapes or submissions. Every fighter KO'ed has no idea how to bob and weave or deal with punches.
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From: HOLLYWOOD-MO
Date: 10/16/06 02:46 PM
Member Since: 05/30/2003
21168 Total Posts Ignore User
^^^^Excellent response!
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From: Deuce77
Date: 10/16/06 02:47 PM
Member Since: 04/13/2006
1326 Total Posts Ignore User
How could he not know? Bullshit. He did but he just couldn't get out of it.
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From: Fredrico
Date: 10/16/06 02:49 PM
Member Since: 04/28/2006
821 Total Posts Ignore User
Royce tried to escape Hughes' cross side by giving up his back. He simply did not know how to deal with the very position (bump, hip escape for the newbies) and made no intelligent attempt to get out of it.
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From: FatBuddha
Date: 10/16/06 02:49 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
5903 Total Posts Ignore User
Edit
WesSimmsFan: COMPLETELY missing the point. If he made some intelligent attempts to defend himself and still failed, then we could come to a different conclusion, just like someone who was mounted by Royce and tried the upa or elbow escape but was countered and still failed. That is a lot different than someone who sticks his arm out like an idiot trying to push Royce off and getting armbarred.
Likewise, Rich was wildly flailing his hands around trying to push Silva away or hit him. He simply did not know what to do and was stuck in the plum for a LONG time which was his downfall.
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From: MrMacabre
Date: 10/16/06 02:50 PM
Member Since: 11/09/2004
550 Total Posts Ignore User
That was a PLUM knockout.
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From: RamK
Date: 10/16/06 02:50 PM
Member Since: 08/29/2003
791 Total Posts Ignore User
How could you not know the plum is coming? I mean its not a big secret that Silva has a muay thai base...
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From: FatBuddha
Date: 10/16/06 02:51 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
5904 Total Posts Ignore User
Edit
Fredrico: I'd be the first to criticize Royce's performance in that fight, but at least he went for a very recognized and accepted escape from sidebody, going to your knees, which Hughes capitalized on. Rich flailing his arms around, is not a recongized or acceptable escape to the plum. Thus your analogy strongly fails.
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From: the_sandman
Date: 10/16/06 02:52 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
4747 Total Posts Ignore User
Just because you cannot get out of a Rickson armbar doesn't mean you don't understand armbars. Reality is that while many MMA fighters know Muay Thai, few can execute like a 6'2" Anderson Silva.
IMHO the Rich bashing makes you the joke, not him. MMA is a very diverse game and you may see the same move executed many ways to varrying degrees of effectiveness.
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From: subwrassler
Date: 10/16/06 02:53 PM
Member Since: 08/15/2005
1064 Total Posts Ignore User
Quentin and Franklin need to go take Plum classes right away IMO.
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From: FatBuddha
Date: 10/16/06 02:54 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
5905 Total Posts Ignore User
Edit
lol at the other top threads on this page (I am not making these up!):
"cutting weight hurt Franklin"
"Rich Franklin's injuries?"
"Rich overtrained?"
"Franklin Looked Way off"
"did rich franklin have the flu"
as if something mystical or magical happened.
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From: NEDCMK1
Date: 10/16/06 02:55 PM
Member Since: 06/26/2003
3747 Total Posts Ignore User
Silva was able to execute his his gameplan. He used his clinch effectively and frustrated Franklin.
What is so hard to understand? You think Rich is defending his title, and after watching vids and whatnot of Silva his trainers didnt try to prepare him for Silva's game? I don't think so.
Franklin is a GREAT fighter, and so is Silva. The better man that night won.
It is a simple explanation noone wants to admit.
Same thing with Royce v. Hughes.
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From: AlwaysInjured
Date: 10/16/06 02:56 PM
Member Since: 07/28/2002
3215 Total Posts Ignore User
FatBuddha - how would you get out of the plum clinch in that position? Seriously.
I ask that question under the assumption that Franklin knows how to pummel in (heck, even I do albeit far from perfectly), but just felt that he could not (hence no effort to escape by that means).
What other alternatives are there? I've just got a wrestler's perspective:
- grab a knee (his) and go for takedown - drop to a knee (yours) and go for a takedown
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From: FatBuddha
Date: 10/16/06 02:57 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
5906 Total Posts Ignore User
Edit
I could see the same kind of excuses with Art Jimmerson-Royce:
Art overtrained? Art looked way off? Did Art have the flu? Art should have worn both gloves?
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From: TheDoctor
Date: 10/16/06 02:58 PM
Member Since: 04/03/2002
741 Total Posts Ignore User
Last edited:16-Oct-06 02:59 PM
You make a good educated argument, it didn't look like he knew what he was doing, but I have another take.
I just can not accept that he didn't know what to do, considering that is one of the first things he should of learned. I believe that he knows several counters to the plum, but he made an alternate strategy to try somehing unexpected. It was a bad decision and it failed miserably!!! I think he thought he could strike with his hands while Silva's hands were both tied up holding a clinch. Bad move and he looked like an amature trying to execute that strategy. He will come back from this and look much better when they fight again.
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From: MrMacabre
Date: 10/16/06 02:58 PM
Member Since: 11/09/2004
556 Total Posts Ignore User
Both gloves would have = UFC Hall of Famer Art Jimmerson, winner of UFC 1-5.
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From: BigWilliam
Date: 10/16/06 02:58 PM
Member Since: 03/07/2005
2997 Total Posts Ignore User
The funny part is there is the excuses are all different. It's not like there was some forehand knowledge of an injury or something. It's all speculation by people who underestimated Silva. Rich is a great fighter, Silva is just better.
From: FatBuddha
Date: 10/16/06 03:13 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
5907 Total Posts Ignore User
yeah, lets not get all mystical here, and look at the facts - Franklin was stuck in the plum for longer than anyone I have ever seen in UFC history. He had many attempts and opportuntities to try to get out before he was hurt in the plum but used each and every one of these opportunties to try to flail away and muscle his way out of the plum.
If tried to use an actual martial arts technique to get out of the plum that didn't work for whatever reason or was countered by Silva, then that would be completely understandable. Instead he used his multiple opportunties to escape (he was in the plum a LONG time before he was hurt) to flail away like someone who never trained thai boxing.
He either didn't know how to get out, or didn't even attempt to use what he knew. Either way, there was a huge technical gap.
What I fail to understand, is how Franklin could be so unprepared for the most common muay thai tie up against a fighter of Silva's caliber and muay thai knowledge and ability? Unfortunately, what I see is indictative of the new crop of MMAers who fail to become experts in individual arts (like Silva has in muay thai and bjj with a blackbelt under the nogueira brothers) and try to become "functional" as quickly as possible.
Something that is put together quickly, also comes apart quickly as well.
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From: Diego stole my name
Date: 10/16/06 03:28 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
8727 Total Posts Ignore User
Rich was losing the fight in the clinch against Jorge Rivera aswell. I guess he is a world class MT fighter aswell. I mean why bother learning how to defend armbars if someone better than you is going to catch you anyway. People act like flailing your arms when Rickson is going for an armbar doesnt matter because he is Rickson. You dont think a whitebelt could catch you if you did that?
One thing i have to point out. Thaiboxers are fighters and not martial artists
From: odysseyroc
Date: 10/16/06 03:28 PM
Member Since: 07/08/2003
99 Total Posts Ignore User
Maybe it was one of those situations where you train to do something, but aren't at the point where it becomes a reflex. Only thing I can liken it to is learning a new escape in jiu-jitsu, it take a while to get from "first I do A, then do B, then do C" to the point where you're halfway done with the escape before you even end up in the bad position. I tend think that Rich went into the fight knowing about those escapes but froze when he faced with it in real life.
From: chadillac23
Date: 10/16/06 03:35 PM
Member Since: 03/11/2006
2 Total Posts Ignore User
I have another theory about why Franklin had trouble. Re-watch the fight. While Franklin was in the clinch, Anderson was working the body pretty heavily with knees. After a few knees, Franklin went into defensive mode and was only worried about protecting his body (particularly his left side). He was hurt and was trying to protect his ribs. If he had tried to pummel in or do anything that took his arms/elbows away from his ribs, he was going to get hit in the ribs with a knee again. In effect he was leaning his back on the fence, trying to turtle up his body and that is when he got hit in the face with the knee. That topped it off and Franklin had nothing left.
We all know he is tough and can fight through pain (like when he fought Louiseau with a broken hand and a bad ankle for 3-4 rounds), but Franklin was winning that fight. Mentally, he knew he could beat Louiseau. In this case, mentally, he was already defeated.
One other thing that he said after the fight caught my attention. Franklin said he got in the clinch and felt like that was his "sweet spot." This tells me that Franklin overestimates his clinch ability and underestimates Silva's. How this happened is crazy. Someone in Franklin's camp had to have seen tape and got in Franklin's ear to let him know that he should take the fight to the ground (effectively taking away Silva's strength). Fedor has great physical ability, but he stands out as the best because he studies his opponent thoroughly, creates a gameplan, and sticks to it. Just my 2 cents ;o)
From: smac1
Date: 10/16/06 03:38 PM
Member Since: 03/06/2006
2983 Total Posts Ignore User
"Someone in Franklin's camp had to have seen tape and got in Franklin's ear to let him know that he should take the fight to the ground (effectively taking away Silva's strength)."
Silva is a BJJ blackbelt, I'm not sure the ground was a btter place to go for Franklin.
From: odysseyroc
Date: 10/16/06 03:41 PM
Member Since: 07/08/2003
100 Total Posts Ignore User
"I have another theory about why Franklin had trouble. Re-watch the fight. While Franklin was in the clinch, Anderson was working the body pretty heavily with knees. After a few knees, Franklin went into defensive mode and was only worried about protecting his body (particularly his left side). He was hurt and was trying to protect his ribs. If he had tried to pummel in or do anything that took his arms/ elbows away from his ribs, he was going to get hit in the ribs with a knee again. In effect he was leaning his back on the fence, trying to turtle up his body and that is when he got hit in the face with the knee. That topped it off and Franklin had nothing left."
I think you're right, Rich was really trying to protect his body after the first few shots and everytime he moved his hand away from his body it seemed like he was punished with another knee. The worst part of it all was after Silva broke the clinch the second time Rich just looks like he wants to go home. In my opinion Silva broke him mentally with the first few blows.
From: WesSimmsOnlyFan
Date: 10/16/06 03:42 PM
Member Since: 07/21/2006
326 Total Posts Ignore User
Maybe you should offer Rich some lessons. I'm sure he'd appreciate your expertise. Or maybe he can watch a tape of some of your fights.
Admin ]
From: Bludhall
Date: 10/16/06 03:50 PM
Member Since: 09/23/2002
9881 Total Posts Ignore User
i think franklisn tried to do the same thing when stuck in plum that rampage did in his first fight with Wandy. Stand up straight with strength to hold of the knees, i am sure this works well against people who don't have the strentgh in clinch of wandy and silva.
franklin should have worked his way out of the plum immediatly, not giving silva any chance at all to set in and start throwing knees. I think it might be a difference in strategy, if rich was thinking positionally he would have immediatly responded to the shitty position. But he felt he could weather it with muscle and lay in some shots. He underestimated the strength of Silvas clinch, just as rampage did with wandy.
even in the second fight rampage had no answer for it.
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From: DildoBaggins
Date: 10/16/06 03:55 PM
Member Since: 08/23/2006
87 Total Posts Ignore User
lol at FatBuddha the troll pointing out that Rich Franklin is clueless when it comes to a MT clinch . . . oh excuse me the plum. I can just hear him screaming at his trainers after the fight "God damn it, you mean Anderson Silva uses muay thai! NOW you tell me!" lol
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From: molsonman
Date: 10/16/06 04:00 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
5300 Total Posts Ignore User
"One thing i have to point out. Thaiboxers are fighters and not martial artists"
That statement does not make any sense.
Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat.
Martial arts may focus on one or more of these areas:
-punching
-kicking
-grappling
-weaponry
Thai boxers are martial artists.
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From: JOESONDO
Date: 10/16/06 04:03 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
626 Total Posts Ignore User
I think he believed that he would be able to muscle Silva around in the clinch, so he made virtually no effort to get out of the plum until it was too late. He underestimated Silva and paid big for it.
Conversely, the first time Franklin fought Tanner, Evan had a super hyped clinch (even though it was nowhere near Silva?s). Franklin came in with a game plan to avoid the clinch at all costs and keep it at striking distance. Anytime Tanner tried to clinch, Franklin would push him off and circle away. Not saying this approach would have worked with Silva but obviously Rich has seen and trained the plum before.
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From: MONSTA
Date: 10/16/06 04:04 PM
Member Since: 12/16/2000
2816 Total Posts Ignore User
At a certain point you have to resort to grappling, even if it meant pulling guard or going for a flying armlocl. I've been in tight plums before, and if you can't swim through, you have to either body lock the waist, (Ortiz vs. Tanner), and if you can't do that, you have to pull guard or go for flying armlock. I don't know if Rich thought he could hang with Silva in the clinc, or he was just hurt and couldn't regain composure fast enough. But if I was Franklin I shouldv'e known that the plum of Silva's was too strong. He is long and lanky and has had better training partners in that department. But hindsight everything is 20/20.
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From: Saku Tech
Date: 10/16/06 04:07 PM
Member Since: 05/08/2006
1085 Total Posts Ignore User
"he simply did not know how to deal with the very basic plum (thai boxing clinch for the newbies)"
He just knew how to deal with an MMA fighters version of the "plum" clinch. He's never had to deal with the real deal.
That was the best Muay Thai the UFC has ever had. I've been saying it for years. Anderson Silva is the essence of Muay Thai in MMA.
ttt for the Slim Technician.
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From: Dirt McGirt
Date: 10/16/06 04:07 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
2471 Total Posts Ignore User
"I think he believed that he would be able to muscle Silva around in the clinch, so he made virtually no effort to get out of the plum until it was too late. He underestimated Silva and paid big for it."
Bingo!
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From: WoodenPupa
Date: 10/16/06 04:19 PM
Member Since: 07/24/2002
2419 Total Posts Ignore User
Chadillac is correct IMO. Rich was hurt very early on in the clinch and that affected his ability to escape later.
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From: rockfists
Date: 10/16/06 04:19 PM
Member Since: 11/17/2004
1231 Total Posts Ignore User
That clinch is not an armbar, and Rich was in that clinch too long.
The funny thing is, both times he caught a knee to the face, he got out of the clinch immediately. It was not some super power clinch that was the end of all that ends all. Give me a break.
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From: YVES JOCKSTRAP
Date: 10/16/06 04:23 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
10746 Total Posts Ignore User
"Thaiboxers are fighters and not martial artists"
Why do you say that?
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From: machinegunupa
Date: 10/16/06 04:24 PM
Member Since: 08/31/2004
1038 Total Posts Ignore User
Plum? No,...pluot.
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From: mojo69
Date: 10/16/06 04:25 PM
Member Since: 03/27/2006
977 Total Posts Ignore User
WTF is plumb?
Adam: I must respectfully disagree. I can't vouch for all the people who have never been to thailand but I'm sure that in many american gyms, thai boxing students have better plum defense. One example: Rich threw 8 knees back at Silva while stuck in the plum instead of focusing all his energy on getting out. Why not at least try an escape like a Rodney King Pina Colada (sp?) to use a move that I'm sure you're familiar with from your Rodney King training? Silva is a nightmare, but Rich with all his athletic ability was stuck in the plum for almost a minute and a half, the longest in UFC history I believe? How can you explain that except for plum defense being a big hole in his game?
I thought the whole SBG paradigm was that if you think you know something but you can't perform it, in reality you don't know the technique. If his training partners weren't high enough to raise his skill set, I would argue that he doesn't "know" the technique because it's meaningless knowledge if he doesn't "own" the technique.
Great thread.
I was shocked at how he didn't even try the "basic" escapes or counters.
He looked like Benny The Jet, in the Jet's first MT fight.
Jesus finally - 4 Ranges to the rescue! Thank you my friend.
Sorry I took so long Fats.
I was stuck under a 500lbs. bench press. ;)
What really shocked me was that there wasn't anything "high level" about Anderson's application of the plam. It was a very "loose" plam, without any unique grips, or any special transitioning from half-plam to full plam to collar-underhook, etc.
It was BASIC.
With such a basic application, one would think that the defender would do the most basic defense or counter.
But that didn't happen. In fact, Franklin responded like a man who had NEVER been in a plam.
Whether he knows the plam or not is not really the point, or whether Buakaw or my mother-in-law slapped the plam on him during training isn't the point either.
It's whether or not he TRAINED THE TECHNIQUE IN A FATIGUED STATE.
If you don't train a technique in a fatigued state during training camp, that technique, and all the knowledge attached to it (timing, variations, counters, etc.) goes flying out the ubiquitous window. You can train the armbar for 1,000 hours with Rickson Gracie, but if those hours are comprised of light rolling, all the fine details that this legend gave you will not show up to save you when you're in the cage or in a bjj tournament.
However, if you train the armbar for 50 hard, fatigued hours (these are all part of a periodized scheme, btw) with a high-level Rickson purple belt, that armbar will come out whether you're in the cage, a bjj tournament, or on a battlefield.
If you've never trained a technique in a FATIGUED state, then you really don't know the technique.
4 Ranges is correct! (lol at the 500 lb benchpress, 4 Ranges don't be humble man!). Good point about training a technique under fatigued conditions that's what I mean by "owning" a technique. It is a long process from seeing a technique to being able to pull it off under pressure.
Are you two kidding me. Fatigued state? IT was 2 min into a 25 min fight with an athlete that is one of the most well conditioned athletes in the world of MMA. The problem is that when Neil Rowe puts a tie clinch on Rich, Rich can escape. When Anderson put it on him he had never felt anything like that before.
As for his "loose" style. Rory did a seminar in GA about 4 weeks ago with 5 of the top THai fighters of all time. The one that taught the primary Plumb material taught it with the exact same style. I like it a lot more (personally) than the tigher style.
Steve,
I have no idea what Rodneys techniques in the clinch are.LOL
Adam: damn, I wish I could have been at that seminar, I think it was the same weekend Ryron Gracie was in TN that I went to (and with my back I can't do thai now anyways). And I know you know far more about Rodney King's material than I do! (any plans to bring him back to the HCG by the way?). I personally liked Silva's plum, just saying that Rich should have gotten out in less than 1 minute and 30 seconds if he had trained more plum counters. Don't you think Rory would have been able to get out faster than that?
No current plans to bring in Rodney but maybe Bravo early 07 and Marc Delegratte. No argument from me about Rich should have worked more counters. The day he took the fight he should have flown to Thiland for a week on defending the neck tie. The only point I am making is that no matter how much Plumb he know or did not know, there is no one in his camp that could come close to what Silva did. This thread could have easily been titled Kenny doesn't know TD defense. Or Kenny does not know how to get off his back. Etc. I would have countered those with the same logic. No matter how many wrestlers Kenny worked with, if they were not abnormally fast and powerfull and shooting in the midst of the standup game nothing could have prepared him for sherk. On the ground I can only think of 3-4 guys that could have helped Kenny get ready for the power and technique of Sherk and I am not sure he worked with any of them.
Adam
I don't think rich looked mentally prepared to fight. He just looked like he didn't want to be there from the get go. Maybe the injuries weren't healed enough.
Thanks Adam, I agree about the flying to Thailand and no one having near the pressure in his camp than Silva did. Eddie's new Rubber Guard book should be pretty cool.
"Fatigued state? IT was 2 min into a 25 min fight with an athlete that is one of the most well conditioned athletes in the world of MMA."
Well conditioned for particular situations and particular techniques, but I'm betting that he did NOT train, under pressurized conditions, to be on the defensive end of the plum.
In terms of conditioning, Navy SEALs are in FAR BETTER condition than MMA fighters. They can do 5-6 days straight with no sleep carrying a 300lbs boat over their head, going through obstacle courses, getting shot at, endless calisthenics, endless miles of running, and endless miles of swimming. Imagine that? NO SLEEP of endless calisthenics, boat carrying, swimming, running, and getting your butt beat down.
However, you put any of those guys in the cage, they wouldn't last two seconds against Sean Sherk or GSP.
Why?
Because even though they are the toughest, most well-conditioned fighters in the world who can outswim, outrun, outshoot, and basically out-tough anybody in the world, NONE of them have ever trained sprawling, guard passing, punching, and clinching under extremely PRESSURIZED circumstances.
A technique does not become yours, unless you've trained it and succeeded with it under psychologically pressurized and physically fatigued states.
Your example really depends on what you consider conditioned. Is a marathon runner conditioned. You are also talking about one week in BUDS in which 2-4 hours of sleep are had and no one is getting shot at. The Seals just brought Martin Rooney in to help them modernize there training.
I think it is crazy for you (or me or anyone) to question the training methods of a fighter that was 21-1 and the UFC champ. Did he all of a sudden forget to train correctly.